Landing Out - DZ Procedures

[sabregrl 0]

What are your DZ procedures when a person lands out? This evening, I was on a sunset tracking dive. Two things occurred. #1 - I didn't listen to my gut (more on that later) and # 2 - I landed out. I landed almost a mile away from my DZ and walked almost all the way back before two experienced jumpers found me walking on the road. My DZ knew that a couple of people landed out but by the time I returned (approximately 30 minutes after I landed), manifest was closed. Therefore, no one knew exactly how many people landed out nor was there any verification that everyone got back safely. Where was the staff when I returned? Drinking beer. I approached some of the staff and one person said it wasn't "his deal" and pointed to manifest (again, they were closed and no one was there). I was fortunate that I didn't break a leg (or worse) because I know, I'd still be out there right now as I write this. Your DZ procedures should be as follows:
1. If you are organizing a jump, make sure all people return (I had to seek out the person who organized this jump after I returned). If you are unsure, inform manifest and make sure everyone checks in upon return.
2. If people land out, staff should start combing the area (with radio) and bring a first aid kit. If something serious did happen, they could radio manifest for an ambulance.
Back to # 1. I did a 6-way tracking dive which was led by someone fairly new to the dz (he's only been jumping there for about 2 months - I've been there over 3 years). He indicated that the headwinds were strong so he knew "we'd get back". I knew the headwinds would lesson at that time of the day so I didn't quite trust what he said. Secondly, we jumped out 4th and tracked southwest (the jump run was east to west). The person leading the dive said that we were going to go fast. I knew from previously fast tracking dives that we would cover some ground so again, I thought, hmmm, this plan is questionable. Even on the plane I thought about pulling off, but didn't. Again, luckily eveything turned out OK but I thing we all need to learn from this. # 1 - Find out what you DZ procedures are for people landing out and # 2 - Be careful who you jump with - you may know more than they do so trust your instincts. Be there to jump another day.

[feuergnom 22]

if you had concerns about the plan - why didn't you mention them?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[sabregrl 0]

I did mention a slight concern when we were discussing the plan and that's when he said, "The headwinds are strong, we've been tracking all day so we'll get back". So, what do you do? He's been hired by the DZ to load organize these jumps, he is "staff", I am just an experienced jumper. Who takes the lead? There was another time at this dz where I felt we were too far out (this dz has almost no outs because of a lake and mountains) and I asked the pilot to turn us around. One AFF instructor who was taking out a Level 1 behind my group yelled at me, yes yelled in front of the student, that the spot was fine. I was always taught that if you feel the spot is bad ask the pilot to take it around or don't jump. Again, I had been jumping at this dz longer than all but 2 of the staff members but, they are staff and I was am an experienced jumper. Who's supposed to know more?

[willhill 0]

It's inconceivable, not to mention irresponsible, that staff at a DZ would close manifest and pop open beers when jumpers are landing off. All canopies have to be accounted for and as soon as it's clear that anyone is landing off, someone better hop in a van and go find them. Unbelievable.

[billvon 2,402]

> He's been hired by the DZ to load organize these jumps, he
>is "staff", I am just an experienced jumper. Who takes the lead?

You do. You have good judgement; don't let an organizer talk you into doing something you think is dangerous.

>One AFF instructor who was taking out a Level 1 behind my group
> yelled at me, yes yelled in front of the student, that the spot was
> fine.

This is pretty common. You have to stand your ground. If they insist, let them get out over the lake and then take it around yourself. I've done that on more than one occasion.

[mollyo 0]

This is sooo irrsponsible! (?sp) Per our phone conversation last night, this is NOT right. We have watched students land & get hurt and usually no staff goes out to help them- experienced jumpers do (actually I have never seen a staff member help a student when I have been there for those situations). Shoot, just alot of the time students land & wander around by themselves-their jumpmaster is on another load already. When people ask me about tandems or AFF I always recommend other DZ's in our area for these reasons that I have witnessed.

I have still jumped at this DZ but my excuse was- i am experienced & its my gear. Now this happens. No safety procedures in place. What if you were hurt? What if it was me getting hurt like I did 3 yrs ago there? I'd be dead for sure if I had landed off on that skydive & no one came to find me. Shoot, I wouldve been dead real soon!

Well I don't think I will jump at Skydive San Diego till I hear at least that they have safety procedures in place (well at least for some when someone lands off!)

What sad is, I thought they had a big meeting & came up w/ all these safety rules after I got hurt there. Guess my injury is old news.

Also, Always listen to your gut feeling. Always.

[USPA 0]

See my reply at another thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=995353;#995353

Also when people on a load land out, we always check with a name list if every1 is back. When someone lands out which we can't see land (So possible is hurt) we send out the car (see above post)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[mollyo 0]

Thanks for the thread, interesting & informative.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Again, I had been jumping at this dz longer than all but 2 of the staff members but, they are staff and I was am an experienced jumper. Who's supposed to know more?

***
Sounds to me like "you" need to become STAFF?
Thats if you wanna make it a safer dz?

Be safe

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[sabregrl 0]

I used to be "staff" (packing on the weekends) at this dz. We used to have many, many experienced staff members but the DZ changed and many of those great individuals are now working at other DZs (or in the case of Bill Von, moderating this forum!). Their experience and knowledge was extremely valuable to me as I started skydiving. On a good note, we have another DZ that just opened in San Diego and I was able to jump there yesterday and had a great time. It's owned by a former AFF instructor that was part of that "old staff". The new DZ, Skydive SoCal, has a lot of professional and experienced staff members and it reminded me of old times. I'm very fortunate to have the choice of four DZs to go to because of living in Southern California. I really shouldn't complain!

[skymiles 3]

I’m so sorry Barb. I wasn’t on your load and didn’t know you had landed off until Scott said so just minutes before you got back. If I had known you, or anyone, had landed off, I would have informed manifest or picked you up myself. So far, I think I have picked up Chuck 3 times. I shudder to think what would have happened if you were injured as night fell. I instinctively watch everybody in my group land and I usually scan the sky for other canopies as I walk back to the packing area. I’m shocked your LO didn’t do the same especially considering he was in your group and responsible for crappy tracking dive (unless he landed out too).

As an experienced jumper, it is imperative to listen to your intuition or gut feeling. I was injured for a good portion of 2002 (sprained ankle, dislocated fingers, and reverse whiplash). Each situation was different but the one thing in common was that a “red flag” went up in my mind before each jump. But instead of heeding the warning, I dismissed it. Despite getting injured, what really pissed me off was that I knew better but still went ahead with the dive. It’s been a hard lesson learned but if I’m not comfortable with the dive I rework it or back out. Just the other week I was on a FF jump that got too big for my liking so I split it into 2 groups. There is too much at stake to worry about offending people and if you explain yourself I think most jumpers will understand.

It is also extremely important to anticipate problems and know how to react to them, which goes far beyond malfunctions. I too was yelled at to get out on a long spot (almost at the “T”). I managed to make it back by pulling high but damn it was sketchy. I checked with Buzz (DZO) about his policy and he said, “if you don’t like the spot ask for a go round”. So if it was to happen again and it has, I would signal for a go round regardless of what asshole was yelling at me. (I realize there is only one pass at places like Perris but it has many outs and their people are already on their way to pick you up even before you land.)

One of the skills that come with experience is the ability to identify unnecessary risk and to take the necessary action to alleviate it. It is different for every jumper and should be forever evolving, but simply put, if it doesn’t feel right don’t do it.

Philip

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

that's when he said, "The headwinds are strong, we've been tracking all day so we'll get back". So, what do you do?

That's when you reply that your experience there indicates the winds will die down at this time, and you tihnk that needs to be taken into consideration. If he is still not "getting it", try once more based upon (again) your experience and KNOWLEDGE there & ask if he thinks rationally (and can respond as such) that they (your observations & experience) are unfounded (and why), or if rather he has some sort of other considerations going on. If he still can't clearly answer, and you still feel as strongly as you apparently did, STAND DOWN. Maybe others will also rethink due to your ACTIONS. Just going along without reasonable consideration is being a lemming.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[sabregrl 0]

My comments had more to do with who a jumper should rely on. I take complete responsibility for not speaking up and not listening to "my gut". I'm experienced and I should know better. My bad. But what about the newbie who has 100 jumps and expects the staff to know what they are doing? I was lucky in that I knew the area very well and could find a "fairly" safe landing area. There are many people who are new jumpers who wouldn't know that. There are many new jumpers who would rely on staff. That's where my point was - you should be able to rely on the staff as "experts" at the dz.

And to "SkyMiles" (aka Dr. Phil), your e-mail noting that you've landed out many times and Chuck has picked you up again I must point out the fact that it was not staff that picked you up. As we all take responsibility for our friends and fellow skydivers, the ultimate running of a safe dz relies on the staff and specific procedures they should have in place. Staff should be out with a truck, radio and first aid kit picking up the ones who land out. You just don't know what you could potentially run into. I'm hoping that this post will make people think more about questioning procedures at their dz, talking to the S&TA (hopefully you have one - I bet few people at Skydive San Diego know who their S&TA is - especially true since we haven't had a safety day for 4 years except when Curt Swanson, the former FF L/O took it upon himself to talk to the experienced jumpers a couple of years ago).

[mollyo 0]

Yes, who is the S& TA???? I don't know!!! I think I have asked but no one has said. Is it Andy now??

[itllclear 1]

Barb-

Glad no bad results.

Rather than saying anything bad about anyone, let me say something good.

Of all the DZ's at which I've jumped, Perris has the best staff to deal with "Out" landings. "Bad Spot" Bill, RIP, set the standard that's hard to beat. The tradition continues.

I had a cutaway about a month and a half ago, landed with my main on the other side of the canal. Before I could daisy chain the lines on my reserve, Tim had the DZ pickup parked on the road at the edge of the field. It's the rare occasion when he misses someone landing out.

I guess the most direct question to ask is "which staff member is responsible for looking for 'out' landings." If the DZ actually points someone out, watch to see how the responsibility is carried out.

See you soon!

Harry Leicher

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[USPA 0]

Quote

If I had known you, or anyone, had landed off, I would have informed manifest or picked you up myself

I am truly amazed the staff doesn't look after their jumpers. At our dropzone we also had f*kups, we're just humans, but it is unheard of of people in the sky and no staff (or someone that's been asked by staff) looking up.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[sabregrl 0]

I agree with you that Perris is the best about picking up people who land out. I even get a ride if I land in the student circle! Now that's service!

[Keith 0]

I was at that DZ one day when a tandem student broke his leg on landing. As the plane was landing for a turn around, the TM yelled to manifest to call 911. The TM told the student he had to get on the next load and help would be on the way. He left the student laying in the landing area ALONE with a Very broken leg. Another experienced jumper and I went over and stayed with the student until the EMTs arrived. At No time did any staff member go over to help him. Unbelievable!!! I could go on but . . .

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Nightingale 0]

Even perris will do a second pass if necessary. They don't like it, but they'll do it. There were second passes on several of my AFF jumps, just because there were a lot of solos, or a large group that needed time to get situated for exit, etc.

[jimoke 0]

I am appauled with the scenario you described. the TM had to go make another $30. wow, it never ceases to amaze me.
"sorry you broke your leg,......gotta go!"
I wouldn't want that bad karma


oke

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[mollyo 0]

Thats awlful Keith. I don't remember if I heard of that incident before, was it recent? Oh I can't wait to get off my crutches & try out the new DZ. We are very fortunate we now have 4 dropzones to pick from.

Again, this is why I don't recommend this dropzone to potential AFF or tandem.

[tombuch 0]

I did a quick calculation of ambulance calls and jumps for the 2002 calendar year at my home DZ. The numbers show that roughly 22 percent of all of our ambulance calls were for landings away from the drop zone. I'm betting that at most two percent of the landings were off the field. That tells me that a jumper is far more likely to get hurt when landing off the drop zone, and that should drive every DZ to build a solid response program to these off-field landings.

I'm sorry your local DZ doesn't understand the need for responding to off field landings.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Lund 0]

First, let me apologize for what happened on the jump in question. You should have been picked up.
Now, with that said, let me give you the details of what really happened. For the last several weeks, jumpers put together a sunset tracking dive. They have tended to go too long but everyone seemed to make it back. On this dive, Andy Witcomb, the GM and S&TA advised the jump leader not to go out as far. Yet they did anyway. I, as the Chief Instructor, was on the ground and saw there was to be an off field landing. I contacted the organizer and inquired as to how many had landed off and was informed it was one jumper. I got in my car as did another jumper and went to go get them. The other jumper arrived first and picked up the off jumper. He was asked if there were any other jumpers that had landed off and he was informed no, that he was the only one. After arriving back at the DZ, and after a little while, people realized Barbara was not there. I immediately went back out in my car to locate her. I saw her as she was just arriving at the DZ.

Now, there have been some mis-statements and misinterpretations posted here. Let me clear them up:
1. Manifest WAS NOT CLOSED!!!! The manifest girls had gone for the day but the office was still open and I, as the chief instructor, was in charge. Telephones and the emergency medical equipment was still readily available.
2. Contrary to Barbara’s post the DZ did not know more than one jumper had landed off. The DZ did do a check to make sure everyone was back but received erroneous information twice.
3. The DZ did not close manifest and pop open beers while knowing a jumper had landed off and was not accounted for. That’s simply ridiculous.
4. Molly’s comments about students getting hurt and no staff going out to help them is simply not true. When molly had her landing accident a few years back, everyone was out there to help, staff and friends both. Andy Witcomb, who is now the GM and S&TA, was there the whole time holding your head. The fact is, we rarely have any injuries by students. Most are by experienced jumpers and yes, the staff does go out to assist in every way. The fact that Molly has never seen a staff member help an injured student is because she rarely jumps at the DZ and even more rarely would see an injury.
5. Molly’s comments that no safety procedures are in place again shows her lack of knowledge and quite bluntly, her ignorance. I would ask Molly and Barbara when the last time was she asked to speak to the manager or S&TA about these issues. I can answer that she has not. She would rather flame away on this thread than find out the truth since the truth is not what she wants to hear. With our military contract in addition to the civilian jumping, we have had our operation and procedures reviewed time and time again. And we pass each time. We even have a grid of the local landscape in the aircraft so if someone lands off or cuts away their parachute the pilot can radio down coordinates to locate them/it.
6. As for Molly’s comments about a Big meeting and new safety rules after her accident, no amount of rules and meetings will prevent experienced jumpers from being stupid and hooking themselves into the ground. Even DZ’s with no hook turn policies see hook turn accidents as many jumpers simply ignore them. I know of at least one jumper that was told to go to another DZ because he would not listen and was an accident waiting to happen. He wanted to size down his canopy to quickly. He then went to another DZ the next weekend, borrowed a small canopy and proceeded to almost kill himself on landing. He is still recovering 4 years later and will never skydive again.
7. As Phillip wrote, our jumpers are a tight knit group. When someone lands off, and it rarely happens, everyone wants to go get them. Sometimes before a staff member makes it to his car, an experienced jumper is already at the top of the driveway. That is great! And as Phillip says, anyone can call for a go around. I’d like to hear of anyone that got chastised by Andy, Buzz or Myself for taking it around. As for staff or other experienced jumpers yelling at you, that may happen and may happen anywhere. Some DZ’s have a one pass rule. That is not the case here and has never been the case here. And Barbara, you in fact told me that you knew you should not have gotten out and that you knew you were too long. Ultimately, each and every jumper is responsible for their own jump and to make sure they are safe.
8. Barbara, when was the last time you asked who the S&TA was? It is Andy Witcomb by the way, the GM. Molly say’s “I think I’ve asked”? Come on Molly, you think? There are also two other S&TA’s that work on the military side available. If you truly are concerned about safety and not knowing, then why post it in this forum instead of asking? You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Which would be more productive?

Now, some additional background information. Barbara and Molly are best friends and are attempting to slander a good DZ by one posting and the other responding and adding to the flame. They are also upset that their friend Curt Swanson is no longer doing Freefly Load Organizing at the DZ. Curt did informal Freefly load organizing at the DZ and did a good job of it. However, we were looking for a permanent Freefly organizer. We were approached by both Curt and Mike Ortiz, world champion freeflyer. We ultimately chose to use Mike Ortiz but left open the possibility of Curt assisting. Curt chose not to accept this and went to Perris. We have since increased Mike’s workload on our Navy Contract reducing the amount of time he has available. So we brought in Icarus Team Evolution. They load organize for both freeflying and canopy control and have a proven track record for producing better and safer jumpers. Curt now finds himself at Skydive SoCal on Brown Field. For the record, I wish Skydive SoCal and Curt all the best and am happy they are succeeding and doing well.

In conclusion, as said earlier, we all have a choice: Be part of the solution or be part of the problem. If someone has concerns and does not talk to the DZ management, they are part of the problem. Only through open communication by all parties can we make this the best and safest operation whether it is in Florida, California, Ohio or Colorado.
While I feel they went about it in the wrong way, I feel no animosity towards Barbara or Molly and appreciate that they are concerned.
I challenge everyone to step up and be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
I can be reached at (619) 216-8416 if anyone wishes to discuss this further.

Blue skies and safe landing!


Greg Lund
Chief Instructor

[Lund 0]

Quote

I was at that DZ one day when a tandem student broke his leg on landing. As the plane was landing for a turn around, the TM yelled to manifest to call 911. The TM told the student he had to get on the next load and help would be on the way. He left the student laying in the landing area ALONE with a Very broken leg. Another experienced jumper and I went over and stayed with the student until the EMTs arrived.

Quote

This is BS. I'd like to know the date and the name of the Tandem Master. I can assure you if any staff member acted in this fashion they would be fired in a second.

Is it me or is it just a coincidence that several people are posting supposed horror stories about one DZ at the same time a new DZ has opened and they are jumping there?

I also find it hard to believe these jumpers are so concerned about safety. If that were true, then they would have talked about it to the DZO or the S&TA to bring up the situations and help to cure them.

Come on folks, lets get real.


Greg Lund
Chief Instructor
Skydive San Diego, Inc.

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[buzzfink 5]

Quote

We have watched students land & get hurt and usually no staff goes out to help them- experienced jumpers do (actually I have never seen a staff member help a student when I have been there for those situations).

Molly,
I find it very hard to believe YOU wrote this. When you hooked turned into the ground and almost killed yourself, you were surrounded by staff members. Andy Witcomb sat there holding your bloody head in his hands the whole time.

When an accident occurs, it is responded to. Sometimes the most qualified people to respond are experienced jumpers. As with your accident, there happened to be an off duty paramedic, Nelson, who came out to help. He was not staff. Should we have sent him away?? We routinely send most of the people back away from an accident and leave the most qualified there as it does no good for lookie loos to just stand by and watch. Let the people who need to work do there job. And I don't care if they are staff or experienced or a wuffo.

As for the DZ not having a written plan, when have you ever asked???? Of course we have one. We could not have recieved a government contract to train the military if we did not. We have passed every inspection with flying colors.

Lastly, to post a response like you did without knowing both sides of the story is simply wrong, irresponsible and not in the best interest of anyone.

Buzz Fink