How to deal with high speed flat spins

[obelixtim 102]

Well I've been jumping for 39 years, and instructing students for most of that time, and its only recently I've ever heard of "balling up". Maybe its a tunnel technique, as you say, but as a way to recover from instability on a skydive, its not a tried and true method.

A bit like the recent "idea" to barrel roll while tracking away from a formation to check for traffic. Some bright sparks idea, just not a very good one.

Listen to the old farts if you want sound advice.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[pchapman 262]

DrDom

For those who teach the "ball"... any help with me understanding it? It makes me admittedly nervous because all my "control surfaces" are inactivated.

I DON'T teach the ball. But I can see where the idea comes from: Instability can come from improper use of one's control surfaces. Balling up should neutralize the control surfaces, get them out of the way, "reset" everything, even if it might temporarily speed up any rotation and also increase the fall rate.

[chemist 0]

that was a very violent spin, would a good arch even get you stable out of that situation?

[Deimian 43]

I think the "ball" comes from the early stages of freefly. If you get unstable in freefly you can't go to your belly, to avoid corking, so the "ball" can help there. Of course going to your back in a controlled way (exposing little surface to avoid corking and give input with your limbs to counter the spin) is better. But if you can do that in a controlled way most probably you wouldn't get unstable.

I think this is the origin of the "ball", but I don't think it is the best way of coming out of instabilities for belly fliers or students.

[ChrisD 0]

ShotterMG

Congratulations! Your simple question has drawn out three of the biggest blithering idiots on dz.com and sent them on a moron-off, idiot showdown! Hahhaa! Don't learn skydiving from the Internet!.... Should be the take away message here.

Lets talk about this idea of "Balling Up"

ShotterMG you want to give an answere here, ???


Balling up is the most Fucked Up thing I have heard this week....

Need I say more?????

Don't do it, God gave us brains people, please use them....


C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

chemist

that was a very violent spin, would a good arch even get you stable out of that situation?

YES.


And relaxing, cause that spin is a result of holding a certain body position.

Unless of course you guys want to persist in believing this type of shit happens in which case some of you are going to go back to 2 jumpmasters and relearn and demonstrate basic stability all over again.



C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[pchapman 262]

DSE

. We recently saw this create some excitement in the wingsuit world too, where the uninformed teach 'curl up in a ball.'

That's nice to know. I'll have to read up more on current best practices.

... Because balling up was mentioned a lot in publications in the old days. E.g., as a technique in the old Birdman BMI Checklist, or Phoenix Fly manuals as of 2005, or indeed in the currently available BPA Wingsuit Training manual (although 2nd in the list after 'diving out' of a spin).

[DSE 3]

obelixtim

Well I've been jumping for 39 years, and instructing students for most of that time, and its only recently I've ever heard of "balling up". Maybe its a tunnel technique, as you say, but as a way to recover from instability on a skydive, its not a tried and true method.

A bit like the recent "idea" to barrel roll while tracking away from a formation to check for traffic. Some bright sparks idea, just not a very good one.

Listen to the old farts if you want sound advice.

Quite a few "old farts" teach "balling up." Very surprised you've not heard of it, as it was one of the first things I was told by an AFFI when I first got into the sport.
A person who is considered a guru in our sport recently got into a situation with a wingsuit. He balled up as taught as part of a very specific (and very incorrect) means of instability recovery. It didn't work, and he made a video about how it scared him.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4548611#4548611
He points out in private mail that he's an instructor in the discipline (point being, time in sport doesn't _always_ translate into greater knowledge). Yet any wingsuit instructor who actually has a background in wingsuit instruction will teach a modified delta as a recovery method, and most (hopefully) no longer even mention the antiquated ball-up myth.
Although this conversation isn't about wingsuits, the same concepts apply with or without the added fabric.

pchapman;
a few years back, Phillip Starbuck and I engaged an experiment with flat spins and instability in a variety of wingsuits. he built the technology used to measure the rotational speeds and forces. It proved quickly that the 'old methods' of balling up were farcical. You'll also find in some early instruction that one should cutaway wings during instability.

[ShotterMG 0]

Haha! Yeah that's so fucked up. Balling up is likely to kill everyone on the plane, on the ground and ieveryone in the surrounding area. You yourself will most certainly die if you ever ball up! You would have to be a goddamn fucking lunatic moron to ever ball up! Everyone on the Internet knows that! Great argument you have going on her. You are saving lives!

However....for arguments sake...DSE says Germain's video proves balling up won't stop a spin. Unfortunately the video never shows him balling up at all. He brings his arms in but his legs are straight out the whole time as far as I can see. Nor does Germain say he ever balled up.
The idea, I think, these mis guided baby killing fools had with the idea of balling up....is to take out the propellor effect that one limb or a bunch of fabric can create. Had Germain balled up he certainly would have stopped flat spinning. It would have turned into a much more controllable and slower downward roll with an easier opportunity to get out of. At the least it's a position he could have pulled from and ended the skydive.
Which is not to say the delta track they taught us in tandem training isn't a much better technique. But had Germain tucked everything in tight he would not have kept flat spinning. It would have turned into a slow roll and he could pitch whenever he was pilot chute up. I don't see how that fact is debatable. But I have a feeling the next 50 posts from dumb and dumber is about to illustrate it for me. Thanks! Great talking to you guys! Super fun. :)

[obelixtim 102]

By "old farts", I'm talking about people who were jumping last century.

One or two weird ideas seem to have popped up over the last few years, based on I'm not sure what. The laws of gravity and motion haven't changed since flying too close to the sun went out of fashion.

And substandard instructors is another slow festering can of worms. More professional study as a requirement for instructional ratings, on instructional techniques, teaching and learning, would be a good start. But thats another story, yet to be played out.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DrDom 0]

Well, it makes sense that removing control surfaces will stop the acceleration of the spin, but also the pulling in of extremities by the nature of rotational physics says it will increase. I guess you could ball up in hopes that the resistance to rotation slows you but you'll also accelerate toward toward the dirt and end up making a dent in the earth a lot faster.

I think it has been postulated that the person's spin was a result of continued input. Again, I did this in the tunnel by accident learning to be on my back. One useful thing "the ball" could do is make someone rest but that would mean Ball -> belly-down --> arch. If the arch were proper then the resistance to turning would be governed by the existing forces we all use every day to maintain stability.

I know there are a lot of people unsatisfied with the discussion, but I think we can agree its a discussion that needs to be had since we are talking about an emergency problem: the loss of control in the sky.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[obelixtim 102]

Quote

the loss of control in the sky.

A person with 100 jumps should never lose control like that guy did. Its a big worry if there are more like that. They have no business being that incompetant. Senior people are not doing their job.

And these turkeys are the guys who want to strap go pros to all outer surfaces.

No one should get past an "A" licence inless they can control all aspects of FF.

Ever.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Quite a few "old farts" teach "balling up."

Some even still insist on teaching the "45' Rule" for that matter too!

Man - has this whole thread gotten even STUPIDER than maybe even the original set (of I will repeat) KNUCKLEHEADS who precipitated it.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone