How to deal with high speed flat spins

[obelixtim 100]

ChrisD

The quality of instruction ends at around jump number 25. At no point is the Delta mentioned in the IRM or the SIM. If it is could you please post the relevant section??? (In any student section.)

Odd angles were supposed to be instilled in student's minds well before they progress, and certainly demonstrated before they are released for self supervision.

I see no hard arch in any of this vid. I see feet , legs, and arms all over the place....

If in fact this person has about 100 jumps, then they best get some basic refresher jumps in, if in fact they can't recover from a basic instability.

We don't teach Delta or tracking in CAT A or any of the CAT jumps. (AS the preferred stability recovery method.)

Here is the recovery that is taught:

Quote

2. Recovering from exit and freefall instability--


a. Altitude, arch, legs, relax (review).

b. If falling stable back to earth although arching, briefly retract one arm and look over that shoulder at the ground to return face-to earth (half barrel roll).

3. Barrel rolls, backloops, and front loops (instructor's preferred technique)


a. Try barrel rolls first, because they have a built-in recovery component from back-to-earth.

b. Any two disorienting maneuvers with recovery and reorientation within five seconds qualify you for self-supervision in freefall (the same one may be used twice).

c. Demonstrate full control by completing all three maneuvers within 60 degrees of the initial heading.

From CAT E.

So I'm having a bit of an issue when I hear so many want to teach something that isn't in the SIM. All though I'm not arguing with ya, do whatever works and perhaps spend some jumps practicing this. But please start with going back to basic instability and recovery as outlined in the SIM. I agree completely, if that was in fact some attempt at recovery, then they need some help....

Otherwise you are on your own?

C

Cause after jump number 25 just where and when do you do this instruction? And just how, does this reflect back upon the instructor after they have demonstrated stability after 5 seconds?

The delta has been a tried and true method of recovery from instability since Christ was a cowboy....and because it doesn't appear in the SIM doesn't make it any less effective or valid.

It is not taught to AFF students, I suspect, because of the fear of having the student get away from the Instructors, hence the emphasis on the "arch like hell" approach.....a slow fall position rather than the high speed delta.

A case of an effective recovery method being discounted to fit in with the AFF programme. Its not a good reason not to teach it, but again, I suspect most of the AFF trained students who have become instructors simply don't know about it, and if they do, don't want to teach it.

It is still as valid a method, and I would say still a better method of recovery than any other, no matter what the current method or procedure is. I still teach it, whether it is in any SIM or training programme or not. Some things are not set in concrete.

Skydivers were doing head down FF long before freeflying came into fashion. It was called a delta, and only needed to be held for a couple of seconds. It was modified slightly to a track or a no lift dive, used to get down to a formation.....

Ask the old farts at your DZ what they think of it. Then get in the air and try it.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ChrisD 0]

I agree, I don't have a clue as to why it isn't taught. But then we would need a longer first jump course?

I agree that this is a skill that should be learned! Right on! I guess when and where is the question.

So many less than perfect outcomes tend to lean to practicing skills, as boreing as that may sound, as compared to "I learned that in my AFF."

By the way did you know that if you spin too fast your arms and legs rip right off your body....

You raise an interesting point about AFF trained individuals and then point out many have gone on to become instructors....without this skill or knowledge...NOW that's scarey!

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[DrDom 0]

ChrisD

I agree, I don't have a clue as to why it isn't taught. But then we would need a longer first jump course?

I agree that this is a skill that should be learned! Right on! I guess when and where is the question.

So many less than perfect outcomes tend to lean to practicing skills, as boreing as that may sound, as compared to "I learned that in my AFF."

By the way did you know that if you spin too fast your arms and legs rip right off your body....

You raise an interesting point about AFF trained individuals and then point out many have gone on to become instructors....without this skill or knowledge...NOW that's scarey!

C

So if someone like me is nearly through my basic levels and about to be cleared for coach, and has NEVER been taught the "delta"... how (aside from being on here all the time) is one supposed to knwo this even exists?

When I get to coach status I'll ask to learn, but if I never asked... then what? I can arch well (lots of tunnel time) but having another tool in the box doesnt hurt. Ever.

This spin is scary. I dont like it one bit.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[obelixtim 100]

ChrisD

I agree, I don't have a clue as to why it isn't taught. But then we would need a longer first jump course?

I agree that this is a skill that should be learned! Right on! I guess when and where is the question.

So many less than perfect outcomes tend to lean to practicing skills, as boreing as that may sound, as compared to "I learned that in my AFF."

By the way did you know that if you spin too fast your arms and legs rip right off your body....

You raise an interesting point about AFF trained individuals and then point out many have gone on to become instructors....without this skill or knowledge...NOW that's scarey!

C

It takes one jump to learn a to do a delta. At terminal, from whatever position, arch the spine, legs straight, point the toes, sweep arms back against your legs. count to 3.

You'll go head down and stable.

From there return to a normal belly to earth FF position, Simple

You should burn about a thousand feet in 3 seconds at terminal.

Its not rocket science.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ChrisD 0]

Quote

So if someone like me is nearly through my basic levels and about to be cleared for coach, and has NEVER been taught the "delta"... how (aside from being on here all the time) is one supposed to knwo this even exists?

When I get to coach status I'll ask to learn, but if I never asked... then what? I can arch well (lots of tunnel time) but having another tool in the box doesnt hurt. Ever.

This spin is scary. I dont like it one bit.

You will get practice with this with your CAT F and H dives. There we will go over the difference between swooping and the delta for the best possible flat track when you start jumping with others. Swooping is a necessary evil, that hopefully you won't really have to worry about for some time.

We really can't practice either in the tunnel.

The spin in this vid is scarey, it is not normal which is why I feel for any student the sees that. It shouldn't happen, which is why a very experienced jumper pointed this out (Thanks Krisanne.) in the very beginning of this post. Then we have another student concerned that the "G" forces build up to the point that you can't function. AND
then we have someone who should know better second this view. This doesn't reflect reality however....

The person in the vid was taught, hopefully, that when freeflying with others the most important thing is to stay with the group so that you don't suddenly "POP UP" and become a collision hazard. It is all too common to see very pooor back flyiers or sit flyiers discover that their skills aren't that good at times like these. The alternative is to do what you have been taught from the biggining which is arch and relax. If you do this the spinning stops but you do pop up compared with head down flying. This is what you are seeing in this vid. They are doing everything they can to stay fast. Recovering by arching is the last thing on this persons mind.

Despite what others have to say the speed of this kid spinning is intentional. They are doing something to maintain this speed of rotation. Although I want to say that 99.999 percent of us are not going to ever spin that fast, the potential does exsist for this to happen. You should know that if your unconscious, and a belly flier, that spins like this are not possible. And the G Force thing is just bullshit, rumor, and plain old wrong to keep spreading misinformation like this. I have come out of spins much faster than this, my eyes have been bloodshot, I have thrown up, but through it all and as many others have done as well, we have no issues whatsoever moving our arms to pull. In fact at this point the majority of jumpers out there can get into a high speed turn and then get out of any, and I mean any unusual attitude within FREQUENTLY less than a hundred feet or so.

If you want to practice leaving the aircraft in unusual positions, because yo can use the step to generate forces that are otherwise unavailable feel free to do this. My only caution is to make sure you don't jump up and hit the tail. Why do this? Well to use the aircraft as a reference and practice recovering as fast as you can. And believe me, most can recover in incredieeebley short distances. making the kid in this vid a moot issue and a bit of an overblown thing that only the unknowing would be concerned about....

Heck talk to any acrobatic pilot, that has pulled over 6 G's and ask them about G forces. They are not pleasant but you can still function just fine. A spinning skydiver cannot generate these kind of forces because their center is not constant nor can they generate these kinds of forces period.

Can a highly loaded canopy gernereate these forces, actually this is a bit of a debate and more to do with the physical condition of the individual jumper. Something about the length of the lines and the forces that a hundred square feet of fabric can generate. It seems as the forces increase the fabric starts to stall. In other words even a malignant canopy can't reach over 6 G's, because of this stall factor. BUT most skydivers are not in any physical condition to withstand much over 2 G's without passing out. Yo won't have to worry about any of this for quite some time. And if the day comes remember to do your ep's before the spinning gets radical anyways, your skyhook MARD will do it's job and have your reserve out in less than a full rotation. Why people hang on to uncontrollable postage stamps is beyond me...but that is a different discussion for another day.

Have a talk with ELI and show him this thread, I'm sure you have more to worry about up there than worring about this. Like the vast forest surrounding your DZ.

C

The Delta is coming up, be paitient, and it isn't taught to students for spin recovery for a reason.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[obelixtim 100]

ChrisD

Quote

So if someone like me is nearly through my basic levels and about to be cleared for coach, and has NEVER been taught the "delta"... how (aside from being on here all the time) is one supposed to knwo this even exists?

When I get to coach status I'll ask to learn, but if I never asked... then what? I can arch well (lots of tunnel time) but having another tool in the box doesnt hurt. Ever.

This spin is scary. I dont like it one bit.

You will get practice with this with your CAT F and H dives. There we will go over the difference between swooping and the delta for the best possible flat track when you start jumping with others. Swooping is a necessary evil, that hopefully you won't really have to worry about for some time.

We really can't practice either in the tunnel.

The spin in this vid is scarey, it is not normal which is why I feel for any student the sees that. It shouldn't happen, which is why a very experienced jumper pointed this out (Thanks Krisanne.) in the very beginning of this post. Then we have another student concerned that the "G" forces build up to the point that you can't function. AND
then we have someone who should know better second this view. This doesn't reflect reality however....

The person in the vid was taught, hopefully, that when freeflying with others the most important thing is to stay with the group so that you don't suddenly "POP UP" and become a collision hazard. It is all too common to see very pooor back flyiers or sit flyiers discover that their skills aren't that good at times like these. The alternative is to do what you have been taught from the biggining which is arch and relax. If you do this the spinning stops but you do pop up compared with head down flying. This is what you are seeing in this vid. They are doing everything they can to stay fast. Recovering by arching is the last thing on this persons mind.

Despite what others have to say the speed of this kid spinning is intentional. They are doing something to maintain this speed of rotation. Although I want to say that 99.999 percent of us are not going to ever spin that fast, the potential does exsist for this to happen. You should know that if your unconscious, and a belly flier, that spins like this are not possible. And the G Force thing is just bullshit, rumor, and plain old wrong to keep spreading misinformation like this. I have come out of spins much faster than this, my eyes have been bloodshot, I have thrown up, but through it all and as many others have done as well, we have no issues whatsoever moving our arms to pull. In fact at this point the majority of jumpers out there can get into a high speed turn and then get out of any, and I mean any unusual attitude within FREQUENTLY less than a hundred feet or so.

If you want to practice leaving the aircraft in unusual positions, because yo can use the step to generate forces that are otherwise unavailable feel free to do this. My only caution is to make sure you don't jump up and hit the tail. Why do this? Well to use the aircraft as a reference and practice recovering as fast as you can. And believe me, most can recover in incredieeebley short distances. making the kid in this vid a moot issue and a bit of an overblown thing that only the unknowing would be concerned about....

Heck talk to any acrobatic pilot, that has pulled over 6 G's and ask them about G forces. They are not pleasant but you can still function just fine. A spinning skydiver cannot generate these kind of forces because their center is not constant nor can they generate these kinds of forces period.

Can a highly loaded canopy gernereate these forces, actually this is a bit of a debate and more to do with the physical condition of the individual jumper. Something about the length of the lines and the forces that a hundred square feet of fabric can generate. It seems as the forces increase the fabric starts to stall. In other words even a malignant canopy can't reach over 6 G's, because of this stall factor. BUT most skydivers are not in any physical condition to withstand much over 2 G's without passing out. Yo won't have to worry about any of this for quite some time. And if the day comes remember to do your ep's before the spinning gets radical anyways, your skyhook MARD will do it's job and have your reserve out in less than a full rotation. Why people hang on to uncontrollable postage stamps is beyond me...but that is a different discussion for another day.

Have a talk with ELI and show him this thread, I'm sure you have more to worry about up there than worring about this. Like the vast forest surrounding your DZ.

C

The Delta is coming up, be paitient, and it isn't taught to students for spin recovery for a reason.

Good post.

The only possible reason to not teach students the Delta is on their very early jumps where they could escape from their AFF Instructors. Once they are solo without an Instructor attached, I see no good reason why the Delta isn't taught. It is one jump, and the most instant and effective recovery method of spin or any instability. It is no big deal to learn, at all.

Period.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DSE 3]

Quote

Despite what others have to say the speed of this kid spinning is intentional.

How do you unequivocally state that this is intentional??

Aside from that this is very unusual, how are you certain that it's intentional?

It's apparent that the jumper doesn't know how to deal with the spin, but lack of knowledge doesn't equate to "intentional" in my mind.

[ChrisD 0]

DSE

Quote

Despite what others have to say the speed of this kid spinning is intentional.

How do you unequivocally state that this is intentional??

Aside from that this is very unusual, how are you certain that it's intentional?

It's apparent that the jumper doesn't know how to deal with the spin, but lack of knowledge doesn't equate to "intentional" in my mind.

You are absoulutly correct, I have been caught making a WAG. I owe you another case of DP.

On the other hand, I can ask to prove that it wasn't?
So what exactly are new free fly'rs taught when they muss up?

C

The only thing that's apparent other than this happened at the Ranch is that they are lousey back fliers...and could have countered with simply turning in the opposite dierection. I really don't even like using the word spin anymore just as I don't like refereeing to the toggles as the brake lines,... cause of the confusion this creates.

This whole thread is an example of how something so simple as stopping an unintentional turn in one direction by minor corrections as any student must learn. Has turned into something that dosent exsist as the spin of death. All this has akomplished is to scare some unknowing students into thinking there are uncontrollable situations when there are not. On the other hand this might be a good thing in that it might promote discussion and a few students might make more CAT B jumps. ???

(And I'm still telling ya that by using Raid 0,...you can half your processing times! But I will admit setting it up is a pain.)

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[DrDom 0]

The only time I've come anything close to this much of an uncontrolled spin was in the tunnel when practicing barrel rolls and I've never been on my back. Tried to stop a spin by pointing feet and had to curl up and fall because I was pointing INTO the turn. Two rotations and was ok but I think that all things considered it wasnt the kind of forces that cause one to black out.

I've never lost control in freefall but in the tunnel if I started getting wobbly I just took a breath and relaxed and arched and it stabilized. Level 6 I exited the C182 (what a new experience having jumped only the otter) and went for a tumble and same thing.. quick proper arch and I was belly down waiting for my front flips.

My guess is that this jumper may have been sensory overloaded and continued whatever input he had... I throw this as a guess only because I have seen it in non-skydiving events where you lose control and just can't undo it. Auto racing this happens all the time and is a common cause for crashes.

Yes ChrisD... the vast forrest out there does intimidate me much more than spinning out of control. I havent met Eli and I'm at the end of my season (weather bad, working too much) but next season I'll ask him. Or if I get him in the tunnel!

Scary things happen when the variables increase. The sky and its aeronaut are wild variables.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[Scrumpot 1]

"Dr. Dom" - You are about as correct in your post here, as I have seen in this thread yet. Good on you, for both your (evidenced) humility, and your WILLINGNESS TO LEARN!!

A very rare combination of "qualities" seen in these forums it seems, in quite a long time.

BSBD,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

My guess is that this jumper may have been sensory overloaded and continued whatever input he had...

I would think at 100 jumps he should be way past the sensory overload stage. I don't think he was doing anything to correct what was happening. His brain was switched off.

So he was neither thinking clearly, or aware of what his body was doing.

In FF the key adage applies. "Concious thought, and awareness in the air".

I.E. At all times, you should be thinking clearly, and be aware of what your body is doing (body position), as well as being aware of where others are in the sky.

This applies no matter how much experience you have, and is something newbies have to learn when sensory overload is at its peak.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ShotterMG 0]

Congratulations! Your simple question has drawn out three of the biggest blithering idiots on dz.com and sent them on a moron-off, idiot showdown! Hahhaa! Don't learn skydiving from the Internet!.... Should be the take away message here.

[DrDom 0]

I disagree he could not sensory overload at 100 jumps. This is a new experience he had. He may have started to spin, lost spatial awareness, and gone all Z-out
Like I said, I've seen it in excellent drivers on the racetrack. It happens sometimes...

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[obelixtim 100]

ShotterMG

Congratulations! Your simple question has drawn out three of the biggest blithering idiots on dz.com and sent them on a moron-off, idiot showdown! Hahhaa! Don't learn skydiving from the Internet!.... Should be the take away message here.

Well done, great contribution. I take it that the guy in the video is one of your ex students.

Looking in a mirror as you typed that, were you?.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ChrisD 0]

obelixtim

***Congratulations! Your simple question has drawn out three of the biggest blithering idiots on dz.com and sent them on a moron-off, idiot showdown! Hahhaa! Don't learn skydiving from the Internet!.... Should be the take away message here.

Well done, great contribution. I take it that the guy in the video is one of your ex students.

Looking in a mirror as you typed that, were you?.

Don't be too hard on em,...
Sometimes he / she has a point.

The question is how many in comparison just sit back and do nothing???

C

I am a little concerned however that I quoted the USPA procedure that just about every AFFI uses, worldwide,...

And yet this rumor persists....


Here watch this nice vid: Nice vid

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Deimian 43]

ChrisD

Here watch this nice vid: Nice vid

A little bit offtopic, but shouldn't the cameraman there track away (at least on the first jump, I didn't see the others) just like the AFFI? If the student cuts away for whatever reason he would fall right on top of him.

[ChrisD 0]

thevasc21

To provide some insight, the jumper in the flat spin has around 100 jumps, pitched somewhere from 1500-2000 that I know of. The jumper didn't pass out, but could not stop the spin as the video shows. the other two jumpers are newly A-Licensed from what I know. Not sure who flew cam.

It's in my opinion the jump was probably above the skill of the jumpers mostly. Looks like the jumper came close to being a statistic.

Back to the original question of:

How would you deal with this incident?

I would remember my pull priorities....

(1) Pull.

(2) Pull at the correct altitude.

(3) Pull while stable.

And quite frankly I'm a little concerned that after your information no-one caught this???
Perhaps like real life they were distracted with what was going on???

C

I guess loss of altitude awareness can also take place on the ground .

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[DrDom 0]

Yes, I guess as a student the prudent thing to do when losing control if an arch didnt correct would be to pull. You can deal with the line twists after I guess...

Every time I watch it i get queasy.

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[mcstain 0]

ChrisD

Back to the original question of:

How would you deal with this incident?

I would remember my pull priorities....

(1) Pull.

(2) Pull at the correct altitude.

(3) Pull while stable.

Good point. Pull priorities were definitely drilled into me during my training.

I asked my instructor on the weekend about this incident. He said that although it was unlikely that I would find myself in such an extreme spin, if it did happen I should try delta position or even curling up in a ball to reset myself.

[DrDom 0]

Could someone explain how curling up in a ball helps?
I dont disbelieve, I'm just interested in understanding. I would think bringing in legs and arms would cause a turn to accelerate (ala figure skating, it decreases your resistance to turning) and being in a ball would destroy stability

admittedly, my understanding of physics outside of quantum mechanics are fairly simplistic, and I dont think I can make this a quantum problem at this scale ;)

This is a good discussion though, thanks to the OP for it... the more you know, the safer you are

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

Could someone explain how curling up in a ball helps?

It won't by itself.

Don't end up that out of control to begin with is a better strategy.

Also, if you later find yourself doing some big (usually ill-conceived) group jump with a bunch of people, i.e. a horny gorilla, magic carpet ride, raft dive, etc... as you feel a rotation start to build, just let go and stabilize/orient yourself before you get tossed through the sky like a rag-doll.

Plus, if you hang on for dear life until the formation explodes... it's a lot harder to get everyone together again, roughly back on level, and ensure a safe break-off with adequate separation.

Just my $0.02... "zoo dives" get less and less appealing as you jump more.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[ChrisD 0]

mcstain

***
Back to the original question of:

How would you deal with this incident?

I would remember my pull priorities....

(1) Pull.

(2) Pull at the correct altitude.

(3) Pull while stable.

Good point. Pull priorities were definitely drilled into me during my training.

I asked my instructor on the weekend about this incident. He said that although it was unlikely that I would find myself in such an extreme spin, if it did happen I should try delta position or even curling up in a ball to reset myself.


All you have to do, at altitude, to see what happens when you curl into a ball, is start a fast turn and then curl into a ball. It's fun to get airsick.

Do you guys remember the air hockey table? Give the puck a little push and it basically moves across the whole table?? This is the concept behind start coast stop. Some people have it in their heads that to stop forward motion all you have to do is just go to the "box," or some say "neutral position." There is some truth to this. And I want to say SOME truth because air resistance will slow you down eventually. You can start some motion, whatever that is and then go back to the neutral position and if it is well timed your coast will end up where yo want to be. Simply going to the box doesn't stop any motion instantly. A well timed coast is a thing of beauty. But many of the exercises have us practicing full throttle so to speak. This is so you can learn the position and engrain it to get the feel and "arggh: Muscle memory for ground practice. If your close to something then start, coast , stop can be moderated, no need to use full throttle so to speak. And we certainly don't use full throttle anything in what we call the red zone or final approach area. When flying with others. Let's take a look at forward motion:

WE initiate forward motion by fully extending our legs, this is going to get us moving pretty fast, not something we want to do when we are very close to others, we then coast, after all we now have some forward momentum and we can actually coast quite a distance in the neutral position, then we counter the forward motion with some backward body position this is the heart of learning start coast stop. This principle works the same no matter what activity we want to do weather it be up/ down, forward /back and you can include turns as well. Like I said mastering momentum is a wonderful thing. A properly timed action will get you where you need to be, and is something that is learned over time. Remember the air hockey table it has a lot to do with air friction? What do you think happens when you reduce your surface area by curling into a ball? Any momentum you had before doing this is now conserved and as one astute person has indicated angular momentum is conserved as well,... your ball now spins faster.

Like I said feel free to practice this effect at altitude....


And when you come out of this you will:

Arch, and then relax.

If you want to counter the turn if yor in a turn, then simply provide some of that start coast stop principle by turning in the opposite direction. This is the stuff that you learned early on and for some of you this is what you should be practicing.

As you can see in this vid that person for whatever reason isn't slowing down, they are in fact not relaxing nor are they arching they are holding an extreme position. Hence tha very high turn rate.

If you find your self in some sort of similar situation, which isn't going to happen BTW, but if you want to continue to argue ignoring what you have been trained to do,...then so be it
ARCH >>>>> to get back to belly to earth.

(The day will come when this discussion will be a memory, because you all will become animals in the air and will demonstrate complete mastery of all of these unusual positions. Many of you will push this and do this for fun. Just remember to be altitude aware!) Please.


RELAX >>>>>So you can assess your body position. If you are a little unstable or turning then, relax and correct your flying.


C

Have fun!


And for those of you that don't know the Ranch has an excellent student web site, or at least they did last year...

And in this web site they pose many questions about what to do in formations in clouds or if you find yourself over trees and stuff like this...It is to promote discussion and debate....


You should have asked your self why did I get out of the aircraft if there are clouds below me rather than debating what to do in a cloud if you muff a formation, stuff like that....Can't help the feeling that this whole thread is some kind of you have just been punked....

here is a vid of some nice spins where arms and legs don't fall off: another nice vid ff to 17:20 if your in a hurry

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[obelixtim 100]

I don't know where this idea of curling up in a ball came from, but I don't think it is the best way to deal with it at all. Fairly likely it would put you on your back or maybe continue a tumble, which doesn't help much with orientation.

I wouldn't bother with it when you have other remedies i.e. Pull, arch or delta.

Stability problems and solutions should be easily mastered within one or two jumps, and should be ingrained before trying anything more complicated. If people are getting right through an AFF programme without mastering these basics, then that points to a massive failure of the AFF programme in itself, and needs to be rectified.

I don't know how things have even got to that stage.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DSE 3]

Quote

Could someone explain how curling up in a ball helps?
I dont disbelieve, I'm just interested in understanding. I would think bringing in legs and arms would cause a turn to accelerate (ala figure skating, it decreases your resistance to turning) and being in a ball would destroy stability

you've got this right. Many do teach "curl up in a ball" but have never tried it themselves. We recently saw this create some excitement in the wingsuit world too, where the uninformed teach 'curl up in a ball.'

Curling up in a ball only works for some body types, and even then, it's a crap shoot because it adds speed. Once coming out of the ball, it's quite possible/likely that whatever induced the instability in the first place, will return. Anyone around you might be surprised at the direction you come out of the ball, and you might collide with someone. The delta/swept arch at the least, provides a head(ing) indication for when you do get stable.

[DrDom 0]

DSE

Quote

Could someone explain how curling up in a ball helps?
I dont disbelieve, I'm just interested in understanding. I would think bringing in legs and arms would cause a turn to accelerate (ala figure skating, it decreases your resistance to turning) and being in a ball would destroy stability

you've got this right. Many do teach "curl up in a ball" but have never tried it themselves. We recently saw this create some excitement in the wingsuit world too, where the uninformed teach 'curl up in a ball.'

Curling up in a ball only works for some body types, and even then, it's a crap shoot because it adds speed. Once coming out of the ball, it's quite possible/likely that whatever induced the instability in the first place, will return. Anyone around you might be surprised at the direction you come out of the ball, and you might collide with someone. The delta/swept arch at the least, provides a head(ing) indication for when you do get stable.

So what I'm hearing is curling in a ball does not necessarily help; the delta and proper arch with or without some opposing input will.

Is this right?

The "Ball" does not make sense to my mind which thinks in physics; the delta does (convert angular momentum and change it to forward movement which is inherently more stable) and arch with control input (convert angular momentum to downward momentum and use opposite input to decrease rotational force).

I know from my first time in the tunnel as well as my first time on my back in the tunnel that generating a spin is not hard and there 'balling up" works because you hit the mat and that causes resistance to turn with your full weight on the "mat". When I didn't "go to mat" I found it easier to just go belly down again and restart.

For those who teach the "ball"... any help with me understanding it? It makes me admittedly nervous because all my "control surfaces" are inactivated. I like control. A lot.

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