Expired Cypres being sold on Ebay

[NickDG 23]

I bought an early Cypres (1991?) and at that point I don't believe there was a life limit. That came later. If he quit jumping around that time maybe he didn't know about the life limit until someone told him . . .

My original Cypres is close to 14 years old and still self tests alright. Even though I'm a rigger and licensed to be stupid I wouldn't put it in my rig as a misfire could kill someone besides me.

But, I think there is a bit of cover your ass going on here. Gee, I have thirty year old eight track player that still rocks . . .

NickD BASE 194

[justinb138 0]

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I know this is going to piss off some of you but I don't see anything wrong with that listing. He stated the DOM and that it still went through cycles, not once was it stated that it should or even could still be used for skydiving. He wasn't scamming anyone.

He intentionally left out the fact that it was expired in an attempt to mislead people that didn't know any better.

It may not be a scam, but that doesn't make it right.

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Streetbike helmet manufacturers state that helmets are unsafe after 5 years of use or 7 years on the shelf so you should all contact the buyers for those and tell them that they're expired.

Not quite the same comparison, as it is still legal to use a helmet after that 5 to 7 year time period.

He is trying to sell something that is essentially useless.

[kelel01 1]

Narcimund's reply is the one that made me decide to act. Sometimes people don't know what they don't know, and I don't feel that we should sit idly by and watch someone get fucked over.

[kelel01 1]

Yeah, and what he said, too.

[uponone 0]

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He intentionally left out the fact that it was expired in an attempt to mislead people that didn't know any better.

It may not be a scam, but that doesn't make it right

True but intentionally leaving something out and being misleading are 2 completely different things. As a buyer it is your responsibility to know what your buying, in this case the buyer knew has was buying a cypress made in '93 but the fact that he didn't know there was an expiration date is not the sellers fault.

Once you bid you are entered into a binding contract unless the description is wrong or misleading, which it was neither. Those people that backed out of a completely legal and binding contract could be prosecuted and the seller would be completely in the clear because he was selling EXACTLY what was stated in his description.

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Not quite the same comparison, as it is still legal to use a helmet after that 5 to 7 year time period.

He is trying to sell something that is essentially useless.

It's also legal to have an outdated cypress in your rig.

[kelel01 1]

That is an incorrect statement. Sparky posted the FAA regulation in the "uses for an expired CYPRES" thread.

Post 65 here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1905883;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

[rbanfield 0]

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Streetbike helmet manufacturers state that helmets are unsafe after 5 years of use or 7 years on the shelf so you should all contact the buyers for those and tell them that they're expired.

That's not exactly true... in my state you don't even need to wear a helmet, and wearing one which is expired would not be breaking the law.

In this case, the seller has chosen to represent a life-saving device as "good-as-new", which it is not.

A better analogy would be to compare it to a used car salesman who tells you the car is in exceptionally good condition and is only putting out n parts per million of exhaust... even though it turns out that n ppm is greater than the number allowed by the emissions regulatory authority of the state - and therefore not legal. Your argument there being you should have done your homework and found out what specific ppm is allowed within your state.

I agree that someone should not go purchasing stuff they don't know what it is for or what restrictions it has. But in the case of the one lady who was buying it for her husband... well damn, that's a nice lady who shouldnt be screwed out of her money.

Here is a response from one guy I sent a message to:
"Thanks for your email. Fortunately I was out bid, and I got a few other emails similar to yours before I decided to Buy it Now. Good to know that there are lots of other decent skydivers out there to watch my back :) " That makes me feel so bad about myself I'll have to go jump out of plane... oh wait...

[uponone 0]

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That is an incorrect statement. Sparky posted the FAA regulation in the other "uses for an expired CYPRES" thread.

Okay that proves my comparison faulty, but my main point was that this guy is not a scam artist.

[justinb138 0]

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True but intentionally leaving something out and being misleading are 2 completely different things.

Not really. He was counting on the fact that someone would think it was still usable to get a better price for it.

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As a buyer it is your responsibility to know what your buying, in this case the buyer knew has was buying a cypress made in '93 but the fact that he didn't know there was an expiration date is not the sellers fault.

Once you bid you are entered into a binding contract unless the description is wrong or misleading, which it was neither. Those people that backed out of a completely legal and binding contract could be prosecuted and the seller would be completely in the clear because he was selling EXACTLY what was stated in his description.

True. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right.

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It's also legal to have an outdated cypress in your rig.

You can legally have a banana tree in your rig too, however, a rigger cannot legally pack a rig with one that's out of date, and you can't legally jump with one that's out of date.

If you think otherwise you need to re-read your FARs.

[uponone 0]

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A better analogy would be to compare it to a used car salesman who tells you the car is in exceptionally good condition and is only putting out n parts per million of exhaust... even though it turns out that n ppm is greater than the number allowed by the emissions regulatory authority of the state - and therefore not legal. Your argument there being you should have done your homework and found out what specific ppm is allowed within your state.

Okay I'll use your analogy. The used car salesman did not state what condition the vehicle was in only that it was sold 'as is' nothing more, nothing less. That is completely legal and in fact when buying a used car you will sign something stating that it is "as is" and that there is no "cooling off period". This guy sold exactly what he stated - nothing more, nothing less. The fact that an unknowing buyer was going to make a mistake is just that...a mistake on the buyers part.

[kelel01 1]

Please do not sell any of my friends gear, ever. I would put you on a sellers' blacklist if I could, knowing that you think this is ok.

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm really thrilled & proud you guys all blew the whistle on this sonofabitch. (Hey, everyone else is calling him a fucker, so I'm going with something new.) He deserves to be staked to an anthill and beaten. Who the hell knows what DZ that thing might turn up at? If that Cypres misfires, the jumper in freefall who goes in when he/she collides with that prematurely deployed reserve could easily be you or me.

Oh, and Uponone, no offense but you're being seduced by the dark side of the Force. Come back over.

[kelpdiver 2]

Ebay might buy into your reasoning. Though historically, they've generally overreacted on controversy and pulled ads.

So we are solving the problem by making sure the bidders know what they're doing. We saved that woman in Australia at least $140. I can't see any reason the winner would knowingly bid $150 on a $60 trade-in, so we'll see about him.

[uponone 0]

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Please do not sell any of my friends gear, ever. I would put you on a sellers' blacklist if I could, knowing that you think this is ok.

whoa, easy there tiger. I would never mis-lead or leave out any pertinent info (again, 2 different things) for things I sell. My argument is not about whether this is 'right' or 'wrong' but more of the legality of it. From a legality view, the seller was more honest and legal than the buyers that backed out of a binding contract.

Here's a question, did any of the potential buyers ask him questions, such as: How many years are left? Is it still safe to jump? etc... If he answered them lying then THAT would be misleading, but not having a full description is NOT misleading, just not very informative. As a buyer (especially someone buying something that could save your life) you should ask at least a couple questions before making a purchase.

I'm sorry but I don't feel bad to whoever is the winning bidder UNLESS they asked him a question and where lied to and for all you know this guy might not have even known there was an expiration date on cypress'.

[uponone 0]

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Oh, and Uponone, no offense but you're being seduced by the dark side of the Force. Come back over.

I don't think this is "right" and I would never do business that way, my only point is that we as buyers need to be a little more aware of what we are buying and if we make a mistake on an impulse buy we can't always blame the seller.

[kelel01 1]

We know that he knew that, based on his responses to people who asked (people from this thread, that is).

And when you put the words "like new" (with no mention of it being expired) in an ad for something you can't even use, that's misleading . . . IMO.

[Shotgun 1]

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edited to remove my opinion on this because it was being viewed as me not caring if this fell into the hands of a newbie. That wasn't my point.

I actually agreed with you Chris. (I read your post earlier before you edited it.) I think that if you're going to buy stuff like that on ebay, that it is your responsibility to know what you need to know about it and to ask any questions before bidding. If you don't know much about a Cypres (and don't want to take the time to learn before buying one), then you should probably at least be buying one from a reputable dealer rather than trying to bargain-shop on ebay.

That being said, I don't think it was very cool of the seller to list it the way that he did, and I do think it was nice of everyone on here who wrote to the bidders to inform them of the mistake they were making.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Streetbike helmet manufacturers state that helmets are unsafe after 5 years of use or 7 years on the shelf so you should all contact the buyers for those and tell them that they're expired.

Although an out-of-date helmet won't cause your motorcycle mechanic to refuse to work on your bike or the local court to yank your license if you wear it.

All knowledgeable American riggers won't install an out-of-date CYPRES and the FAA can yank ratings if you get caught using it.

[Andy9o8 0]

Sigh...reading your posts in this thread is almost painful. The clear intent, context and practical effect of that shithead's Ebay listing is to mislead and deceive a gullible bidder. (With potentially life-threatening consequences). One has to be dense to not be able to see that.

BTW, despite what you presume, I can tell you that a fraud claim against that guy would get some real traction.

[Anvilbrother 0]

I agree with you. The person selling might have not known about any life span. How many people are walking around from all the RSL threads that dont know how one works, or how to hook up your risers. If he intentionally lied to them fine, but just by looking at the add alot of people here are going off the deep end.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kelel01 1]

Have you read any of the rest of the thread?

The sellers' responses are posted.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yes I did read them, care to point out which one you are talking about. Was it the reply that he gave to someone about airtec not telling him there was a lifespan, or the one where he told someone if they did not want it they could trade it in for $60, or the one where he said it might could be used in a different country where it is legal?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kelel01 1]

Any of those will do. It's implicit that he knows that it's expired from the context of those. Don't try to say he's ignorant.

[AndyMan 7]

I have absolutely no objection to anyone selling an expired Cypres.

Some day I plan on buying one, to play with.

He clearly indicated the Date of Manufacture. That's good enough for me. Quite frankly, anyone who buys a Cypres without checking the date is a fool.

Nobody should ever buy skydiving gear unless they know what they're buying. While many gear retailers do actively try to protect their clients from buying the wrong stuff, that is not their job. I certainly do not expect that from individuals selling on Ebay.

It is our job as skydivers to buy appropriate gear. End of story.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[uponone 0]

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Sigh...reading your posts in this thread is almost painful. The clear intent, context and practical effect of that shithead's Ebay listing is to mislead and deceive a gullible bidder. (With potentially life-threatening consequences). One has to be dense to not be able to see that.

BTW, despite what you presume, I can tell you that a fraud claim against that guy would get some real traction.

Ebay would be out of business if a Fraud claim went through on this guy. He states "Looks and Cycles like new". I just sold a truck that looked good and started but it was still sold "as is" and if it doesn't pass smog and the guy calls me back and bitches at me for selling him a truck that doesn't pass smog I'm going to tell him that I sold it "as is". If he tells me he's taking me to court, I'll tell him to bring it on.

Most if not all of ebay's transactions consist of buying an item based solely on a description. If the description=the actual item than I don't see how you could sue him. Did the winning bidder not receive a cypress manufactured in '93 that looks & cycles like new?

I'm not condoning what this guy did nor would I ever conduct a sale in that matter but you do see my point don't you?