Are we moving to fast?

[simplyputsi 0]

I can't see how this has not been covered before, but I've not seen a discussion on it recently. I'm wondering if the progression from belly flying to freeflying is happening to fast these days. I have an uncle who has been in this sport for over 10 years and the last time I spoke to him we had a discussion on what type of jumps I've done, what I did for my 100th and stuff. I mentioned I did a hybrid for my 100th and that I've been working on sitflying a little. It was his opinion that it was too early for me to start freeflying. I do somewhat agree with him. I know there is much more I can learn on my belly. His concern was that freeflying is much faster and people with low jump numbers are not aware of the difference in fall time and can loose altitude awareness. Of course there are audibles, but isn't that device dependency?
If someone starts freeflying with low numbers, will they not become familiar with the less time in freefall?
I guess it all depends what you want to achieve in this sport. If you want to do some RW comps then you will stay with the belly longer. If you have no interest in the RW, maybe then you go for the freeflying. I would just like everyones take on it, old and new.

Skymama's #2 stalker -

[NWFlyer 2]

This topic has been discussed before, and you'll hear mixed opinions on it.

One of the ideas that really stuck with me is that sticking with RW for the first 100 or so (pick a number) jumps is that it allows the jumper to build critical air awareness, breakoff, and tracking skills at a slower pace than the freefly/hybrid pace. It's not that you necessarily need to learn how to turn 20 points on four-way before you can go to freefly, but that you learn and develop instincts on keeping track of others in the sky (whether they be above you, below you, behind you, or right in front of your face). That's the stuff that's gonna keep you safe.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[bob.dino 0]

You've just said everything I wanted to say

• Quote

[firstime 0]

it's always good to try something a little different.
But I guess you have a point to a degree. Belly
flying is the basics. I would think that if one does
different types of jumps other than belly it would give you a different perspective on body flight. I will
do any type of jump because I can go to my belly, slow my decent at pull time. But some might argue
that get real good at one discipline prior to going to
the next. I think your question is similiar to the RSL question.

[Harksaw 0]

Quote

His concern was that freeflying is much faster and people with low jump numbers are not aware of the difference in fall time and can loose altitude awareness. Of course there are audibles, but isn't that device dependency?

I'd say its a good lesson reinforcing altitude awareness, since you shouldn't be depending on fall time for determining breakoff anyway. If a skydiver is being truthful with him/herself about their skills on their belly and tracking, acts intelligent learning about the new precautions necessary for freeflying, and takes learning it it one step at a time, 100 jumps isn't too early. IMHO.

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

it's always good to try something a little different. . I will do any type of jump because I can go to my belly, slow my decent at pull time..

If you're already on your belly, you can just pull. More than one person has gone in trying to get stable.

If you're on your belly, the ground can't sneak up on you as easily as with freeflying.

If you're on your belly, you can't cork up and hit another jumper.

If you're on your belly, a premature opeing isn't as bad.

There's more reasons why it's safer.

Yes, I do freefly.

• Quote

[davelepka 4]

Quote

If someone starts freeflying with low numbers, will they not become familiar with the less time in freefall?

Just like someone from a Cessna DZ gets used to jumping from 10k, while the turbine nanies are getting out at 14k?

Or what happens when the turbine baby has to exit low due to cloud cover (low as in 8k or 9k)?

That seems like a stupid reason not to freefly. If you cannot get it through your head that until you have 100's of jumps, all with the same fall rate and break off, that you shouldn't be 'accustomed' to anything.

For the record, hybrids are the worst for being accustomed to time as it refers to altitude. Every dive will have different lengths at belly speeds, and different lengths at freefly speeds. There is almost no way to get a feel for the time frame for a hybrid.

Being altitude aware is a big deal. The number of changes possible to a skydive that could possibly alter your impression of 'what time it is' is almost endless. Especially during your first few hundred jumps, when you're doing and seeing new things on almost every jump, any one of them can catch your attention, and 'erase' 10 or 15 seconds of skydive.

Use and maintain your audibles. Keep regular alti checks a part of every dive plan .

If you want to freefly early, the bigger danger is collisions with other jumpers, both in your dive, and in the groups before and after you. Run a search of my posts, and somewhere in there is a break downb of how to freefly safely from day 1. The key is to follow the guidelines, and be realistic about your abilities before progressing to the next step.

[Remster 26]

Dave: I think the big issue isnt the less time in freefall, but rather how fast you eat up altitude.


And to Firstime: who said Belly flying is the basics: really, how much complex RW jumps have you done?

Remster

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

This topic has been discussed before, and you'll hear mixed opinions on it.

One of the ideas that really stuck with me is that sticking with RW for the first 100 or so (pick a number) jumps is that it allows the jumper to build critical air awareness, breakoff, and tracking skills at a slower pace than the freefly/hybrid pace. It's not that you necessarily need to learn how to turn 20 points on four-way before you can go to freefly, but that you learn and develop instincts on keeping track of others in the sky (whether they be above you, below you, behind you, or right in front of your face). That's the stuff that's gonna keep you safe.

totally agree, if i may add a bit. We know that we lose new jumpers from say 25 to 100 jumps when they quit.

You just get off AFF, it was hard work, expensive and you are ready to do something different. You might try to belly fly with someone but they may want "more experienced" jumpers on the dive..Then here comes a FF and picks you up. You think great I can jump with someone..Should you? or do you think its ok to find a newbie and ff with him?

Ultimately you might end up alone again and then you quit.
I think FF has been great for the sport, but waiting another 50-100 jumps before ff might help with accidents and long term jumpers, not to say that if you did stay on your belly longer that you wouldnt quit either.

I guess thats why I enjoy so much just grabbing a newbie every chance I get make a jump with them. I cover my slot they cover theirs. Yes I am mostly belly.

FF does speed things up thus forcing the newbie to make decisions quicker, and they dont always do it.
"Skydiving requires you to be 100%, 100% of the time." Sherry Schrimsher sometime in the late 60's

[simplyputsi 0]

All the posts are great. I really have just not been able to have a REAL discussion at the dropzones I've been at.
It seems these days when someone graduates off student status it is an immediate race to turn him/her to a particular discipline. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.
I know i've seen people who want to sit who have never flown on their back. People who want to freefly who can't hold a heading doing a front flip/backflip. I don't see it my place to tell someone what they can and can't do in the air though. After all you can fly really crappy and still be safe. On a jump with more experienced people, let them know what you have trouble with so they are aware.
I can tell this is a touchy subject. I'm not trying to write concret rules on the subject, just wanting to discuss.

Skymama's #2 stalker -

[davelepka 4]

Quote

FF does speed things up thus forcing the newbie to make decisions quicker, and they dont always do it

This is a misconception. It the jumpers who put themselves in the postion to have to act fast.

For example, if your RW skills were such that you were just barely stable, with no control over heading, porxitmity or fall rate, would you say that a two way with anyone except an AFFI is a good idea?

This is the position that new freeflyers put themselves in all the time. Without these basic skills, they will join up with other similarly unskilled jumpers, and proceed to do two or three way dives.

Solo for solo, provided you can regain stability (back to your belly) from an unstable position, the only difference between a freefly and a bellyfly is the time in freefall (this is assuming modern, safe equipment).

Again, I posted a rundown of how to start, and what skills to achieve before progressing with regrds to freeflying. Indeed, it does take some dicipline to follow the guidelines, and be realistic about your abilities, but it can be done.

[damion75 0]

Quote

It seems these days when someone graduates off student status it is an immediate race to turn him/her to a particular discipline. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.

I kind of agree that one does see the rush to be one or the other and people totally identify themselves that way after 50-100 jumps but it does seem to be a shame and pretty limiting.

After all, the thing about skydiving is that there really is no hurry and why not try it all a bit at a time? Admittedly at the moment is do almost purely FS because I have got the 4-way bug but I have every intention of starting on FF some time. Why limit yourself to one thing? (not you personally! just an expression)

Ok, most people will specialise in one thing and only be REALLY god at that (except for the notable few geniuses who seem to be able to do it all!) but lets try to keep the horizons broad. If we want people to think like that of course, we have to educate them while they are newbies...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.