Skyhook reserve deployment

[stratostar 5]

Well it read to me like you were being a dickhead just to be a dickhead, now I might have took your post the wrong way, but if you came off the same way to Bill Booth as I read your post I'm not surprised he stopped sending you a reply,
just something to think about, we don't always come off the way we intended too when typing a post or e-mail or a PM.
I'm just as guilty of doing the same.

Now you two kiss and make up already!

As for,

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What kind of a hard deck is 1600ft anyway for someone with 300 and something jumps?

I guess it's OK because he's a basejumper and that somehow makes it safer for him.

Personally I think it was kind of high, my hard deck is 1000 to 800 ft. and I'm not a base jumper....
What I mean by that is I'm not going to get all worked up over being under 1800 ft with a small pain in the ass like a brake hung up and one released, it's not like having a baglock or something and passing thru 1600 ft.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,463]

>you will have covered 20-30 ft vertical in the 2-3 seconds you think it took to cutaway . . . .

3 seconds in freefall, from a dead stop, is 144 feet. Add to that the descent speed of the canopy (which you start with) and it's a total of 189 feet. If it's 2 seconds it's 109 feet.

[Andy9o8 0]

I lost 500 feet of altitude just reading your post.

[azureriders 0]

wow, a speed reader, I am impressed

[mjosparky 3]

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From the length of your post that is basically you just talking shit to me, you seem to have lots of free time...

With all that free time you would think he could come up with a name.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tso-d_chris 0]

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1. a BASE canopy takes more than 50ft to start flying from a PCA

2. you are descending under the main before cutaway, so you start with vertical speed

I seriously doubt it took 50ft from chop to flying reserve and I wish people would stop claiming these ridiculous numbers for the Skyhook.

It's a great device, but claims like these are undermining it's credibility.

Well put. Untruthful marketing (

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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Why don't we just ask the man Mr. Booth for some real data from the huge amount testing done with the system instead of turning this into a giant pissing contest!

Anyway who really gives a shit, unless your planning on chop'n at 100ft.
The system works! Hydroguys lives to jump again and that is all that really matters, no need to bash the dude for posting his experience with the system.
JMHO

~

I've yet to see any realistic evidence of deployment distances. Mr. Booth has previously acknowledged that the numbers were only rough estimates. Newton tells us that 100 ft is an unrealistic estimate, even for a Skyhook reserve deployment.

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[Vertifly 0]

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I've yet to see any realistic evidence of deployment distances. Mr. Booth has previously acknowledged that the numbers were only rough estimates. Newton tells us that 100 ft is an unrealistic estimate, even for a Skyhook reserve deployment.

so what....do you think you could beat the system to a fully opened reserve? 50ft....100ft...200ft...400ft. can you beat it or are you just trying to be technically correct? ???

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I've yet to see any realistic evidence of deployment distances. Mr. Booth has previously acknowledged that the numbers were only rough estimates. Newton tells us that 100 ft is an unrealistic estimate, even for a Skyhook reserve deployment.

so what....do you think you could beat the system to a fully opened reserve? 50ft....100ft...200ft...400ft. can you beat it or are you just trying to be technically correct? ???

It is not a matter of being technically correct. I have a problem passing on untruths to my customers. When skydivers are lied to by marketing teams, skydivers are not benefited.

You are comparing a Skyhook deployment to a manual deployment. A more realistic comparison would be to compare a Skyhook reserve deployment to a standard RSL reserve deployment. You will find very little difference. It is highly unlikely a jumper could beat either one manually.

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[Vertifly 0]

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It is not a matter of being technically correct. I have a problem passing on untruths to my customers. When skydivers are lied to by marketing teams, skydivers are not benefited.

So everyone has to be absolutely correct about the distance so that you can tell the truth to your customers. Why don't you just word it so that you aren't lying to your customers rather than relying on the second hand information? I don't think that this post was meant to be a lie or an exageration. It sounds like the dude was just impressed by it.

[stratostar 5]

My point has nothing to do with the numbers, is has to do with bashing someones experiance with the system, we all know his 50ft is not close to being correct, due to the event and how the mind works during a event, but there is still no reason the bash him , he felt like it was 50ft., the key word being "felt".

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tso-d_chris 0]

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So everyone has to be absolutely correct about the distance so that you can tell the truth to your customers. Why don't you just word it so that you aren't lying to your customers rather than relying on the second hand information? I don't think that this post was meant to be a lie or an exageration. It sounds like the dude was just impressed by it.

I wasn't referring to the claims made by the original poster. I was referring to claims made by the manufacturer's advertisements.

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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My point has nothing to do with the numbers, is has to do with bashing someones experiance with the system, we all know his 50ft is not close to being correct, due to the event and how the mind works during a event, but there is still no reason the bash him , he felt like it was 50ft., the key word being "felt".

~

I didn't bash the poster at all.

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[stratostar 5]

You misunderstood, I didn't mean you did.
But the post of mine you were quoting was to a poster I felt was.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tso-d_chris 0]

My mistake. Sorry.

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[BillLockwood 0]

You really need to think before you hit the enter key! What evidence do you have to contradict the manufacture? The manufacturer has hundreds of videoed skyhook deployments that the estimates came from, how many do you have? The manufacturer has been designing equipment for over 30 years and has engineers, designers, master riggers and test jumpers with hundreds of years of combined experience in addition to multiple patients. What do you have? You might think twice about making slanders statements.

[980 0]

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My point has nothing to do with the numbers, is has to do with bashing someones experiance with the system, we all know his 50ft is not close to being correct, due to the event and how the mind works during a event, but there is still no reason the bash him , he felt like it was 50ft., the key word being "felt".

~

and I quote:

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Had a reserve canopy over head before my reserve handle had cleared completely...maybe 50 vertical feet.

no 'felt' in there, my friend

with all due respect, we may know that his 50ft statement is incorrect,

but please remember:

there are many people with less experience and/or less undestanding of physics and parachutes and/or less or no common sense, who read these forums and would not realise that 50ft is unrealistic

therefore it is dangerous to state that, even as opinion

[980 0]

Wow!

I was just waiting for the Fundamentalist Boothians to find this thread...

I see no slander in Chris's statement.

I do think that you may want to ask Willem to add a grammar checker to these forums though.

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videoed skyhook deployments that the estimates came from

I find it very interesting that some people are willing to be very specific with numbers in regards to these estimates and they will defend them fervently.

[Andy9o8 0]

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The manufacturer has hundreds of videoed skyhook deployments that the estimates came from, how many do you have?

Oh yeah? Well, you may have 1600 jumps but you only have 20 posts. That means you don't know shit.

What started out as an interesting thread has been hijacked into just plain stupid. Thanks a lot, guys.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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You really need to think before you hit the enter key! What evidence do you have to contradict the manufacture? The manufacturer has hundreds of videoed skyhook deployments that the estimates came from, how many do you have? The manufacturer has been designing equipment for over 30 years and has engineers, designers, master riggers and test jumpers with hundreds of years of combined experience in addition to multiple patients. What do you have? You might think twice about making slanders statements.

I am well aware of the major and minor contributions this manufacturer has made to skydiving.

Were you aware that the 100 foot cutaways that were made used slider down/off reserves? There was no altitude to spare on those deployments. That is not a realistic deployment scenario by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't just make the claim with no evidence to support it. I challenge you to find a single video of a Skyhook deployment with a reserve packed to manufacturers specifications (slider up) that can be reliably measured and shown to occur in less than 100 feet.

As for what I have, I can only rely on Newtonian Physics, and his kinematic equations, and the knowledge of the slider down deployments. Are you saying that the force of gravity changes during a Skyhook reserve deployment?

BTW, slander is spoken, not written. The word you are looking for is libel. However, the statements must be false to be libel (and against an individual, not a group of people according to my handy dictionary). A good example of libel would be you accusing me of slander.

While a few people have argued passionately about the perceived greatness of the Skyhook, I have yet to see ANY evidence supporting the manufacturer's marketing claims of < 100ft deployments. If you know where such evidence can be obtained, feel free to post a link.

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[Vertifly 0]

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there are many people with less experience and/or less undestanding of physics and parachutes and/or less or no common sense, who read these forums and would not realise that 50ft is unrealistic

therefore it is dangerous to state that, even as opinion

Two points...

(1) why is it dangerous for the poster to state that his opening seemed like 50ft? if anyone....NO. If ANY skydiver chops at 100ft, then they shouldn't be skydiving to begin with.

If you've made it that low...with a problem that will cause you to cutaway...then, it is my opinion that you deserve to be rolling the dice anyway. Because you've already taken fate and left it to chance by waiting too long.

and

(2), Go here and click the [View Skyhook] button. THIS video shows about a 20ft opening with the slider down.

About 3/4 of the way through the video if you don't want to watch the whole thing, just let it load and fast-forward through.

So I guess maybe you all are arguing over how long it takes your slider to make it down.

???

[pilotdave 0]

The original poster said he had a reserve canopy over his head in ~50 feet. That's probably absolutely true. The canopy may not have been fully open and flying, but I bet it was over his head.

The skyhook drastically reduces the distance to reserve line stretch. I don't know how many feet it takes to open the reserve to the point where a person could land safely, but I think the reduction in total opening distance is only one part of the skyhook's advantage over a standard RSL.

Fact is, during a cutaway, the skyhook will have your reserve over your head at probably about the time your freebag is coming out using a standard RSL. You can look up and see a reserve sooner, and you'll feel the opening shock sooner. I've heard intentional cutaways with the skyhook described as feeling more like turbulence than a cutaway.

Dave

[980 0]

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(1) why is it dangerous for the poster to state that his opening seemed like 50ft? if anyone....NO. If ANY skydiver chops at 100ft, then they shouldn't be skydiving to begin with.

If you've made it that low...with a problem that will cause you to cutaway...then, it is my opinion that you deserve to be rolling the dice anyway. Because you've already taken fate and left it to chance by waiting too long.

I agree that no skydiver should be that dumb, but many are and as big a fan as I am of Darwinian population reduction, I don't need to see it in any of 'my' sports.

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(2), Go here and click the [View Skyhook] button. THIS video shows about a 20ft opening with the slider down.

About 3/4 of the way through the video if you don't want to watch the whole thing, just let it load and fast-forward through.

So I guess maybe you all are arguing over how long it takes your slider to make it down.

I have seen that whole video many times.
The first time was when Piers and Egon showed it to me.

I have looked closely at the slider down deployments in that clip many times too.

The opening shown there takes more than 20ft from cutaway to FLYING reserve.

I would go so far as to say that it took more than 100ft from cutaway to flying reserve.

I base this on having seen many low altitude parachute deployments.

It is altitude lost from cutaway to FLYING reserve that matters, not reserve out of the bag and over your head.

I base this on having seen more than a few people ‘land’ canopies before they have had time to start flying.


I will now go so far as to say that:
-even in the smallest standard container size that RWS make
-with the smallest main and reserve available on the sport skydiving market
-loaded to the maximum weight limit stated by the reserve manufacturer
Even with all these factors making for a faster opening, the skyhook will not get you a flying reserve 50ft below the altitude that you cutaway.

Just go look at the altitude a proficient wingsuit basejumper needs to get a flying canopy when they deploy in full flight.

[Vertifly 0]

regardless, if you chop below 300ft (maybe even higher)...skyhook or not...big reserve or small...high wing load or not...you are talking to mr.reaper.

[billbooth 10]

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So everyone has to be absolutely correct about the distance so that you can tell the truth to your customers. Why don't you just word it so that you aren't lying to your customers rather than relying on the second hand information? I don't think that this post was meant to be a lie or an exageration. It sounds like the dude was just impressed by it.

I wasn't referring to the claims made by the original poster. I was referring to claims made by the manufacturer's advertisements.

As I have said before, it is difficult to record the exact moment in a canopy opening when the jumper's vertical velocity becomes life saving. (I know...I've tried many times.) The opening shock, and the rapid swing under the deploying canopy really throws the instruments off. However, I can determine, by looking at video, when the canopy seems to be "fully open". On reserves in the 120 square foot range, this time averages about one and a half seconds from breakaway.

A simple trip to the freefall tables (found in many log books) says than you fall 62 feet in the first two seconds. So, if we assume an initial vertical velocity of 20 feet per second under the malfunction, and a two second reserve opening time, the distance fallen between breakaway and reserve opening is 20+20+ 62, which equals 102 feet. (If I got that wrong, some math student please correct me.) Since Skyhook openings almost always take less than 2 seconds, I believe that the 100 foot reserve opening number can easily be defended. (In fact, if you plug in 20 fps initial vertical rate, with a one and a half second opening, you get under 75 feet.)

HOWEVER, 1. Most skydiving altimeters exhibit errors in excess of 100 feet. 2. Many malfunctions have MUCH higher rates of descent. 3. It can often take more than 100 feet just to look at your altimeter. 4. It can easily take another 100 feet just to locate and pull your breakaway handle.

Therefore, I never have, and never will, advocate breaking away at 100 feet. All that can be said of the Skyhook for sure, is that it is the fastest, and "cleanest" way to get a reserve over your head after a breakaway. I apologize if some of you found some of our advertising misleading.