Self-Policing

[2shay 0]

I do not feel that the uspa should be elimintated, or am I unappreciative. I love how people assume that if you question the organization in any way though you want to get rid of it and hate it. I feel that the uspa is not perfect as mentioned and they have stuff to work on and need to be modified. As another said that they represent the dzo's more rather then the skydivers. That is one of the many. I think the uspa is neccesary but like anything they can always use improvement. A few of you treat my posts as if I want to burn the uspa at the stake and that is simply not the case. I question issues on anything becasue if you do not question and do not bitch nothing ever gets done because no one is aware that there is a problem. I feel that the prices of skydiving in any aspect of the sport: gear, jump costs, tandem, costs, student jump costs. Since the uspa promotes and represents skydiving it needs to be prepared to be okay with being accused of pricing people out of skydiving. Do you think the uspa is running the best and absoultely the most efficient that it can be run DSE? What suggestions might you have? I think that you want to argue more than find suggestions.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[DanG 1]

I'll take a stab, but some of my answers probably aren't what you are looking for.



Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members"? Yes, although maybe the punishments aren't always what some people think they should be. There are always cases where people "get away with" something, but that doesn't mean enforcement is non-existant.

Is it a coincidence that Don Yarling had a presentation at PIA 2001 about the Instructor shortage and shortly thereafter the course standards for AFFI's were lowered? Were they really lowered, or is that just the perception by old schoolers who walked uphill five miles in the snow each way to get the the DZ? I really don't know the history to which you are referring, so I ask you, how were the standards lowered?

Why does USPA not protect Instructors that they certify when a DZO demands they violate a BSR? Examples, please. How do you know they don't?

Why did the DZ inspection program fail? No clue what you are talking about, please educate.

Why doesn't the USPA maintain a manufacturer Service Bulletin database similar to the APF? Good question. I think they should. Has this been formally requested? Does PIA maintain one?

Why doesn't USPA require minimum performance requirements for Instructors renewing their rating(s)? I agree they have very minimum renewal standards. On the oher hand, I can guarantee there would be a shit storm of complaints if Instructors had to go through evaluation jumps every year. First of all it would cost money, which is evil in many people's eyes, and secondly there would be all kinds of ego bruising. The resistance to this idea would be huge. Not that it's not a good idea.

Why does the USPA require GM DZ's to require skydivers to me USPA members in order to skydive at that DZ? I don't know, but I think a good explanation is that it would be impossible for USPA to enforce any BSR if a viable excuse would be, "Oh the jumper in question is not a USPA member, so the BSR's don't apply to him/her." Also requiring membership is USPA's way of staying alive. Without it people would still expect USPA to do all of its lobbying efforts, but without any income.

How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often? Probably quite often, depending on where you are. What does that have to do with how USPA is run? Surely you aren't suggesting USPA have a paid staff member monitoring activities at every DZ in the country (and some overseas)?

How's that for a start?

- Dan G

[marks2065 0]

the price of getting an A lic has gone from $1000.00 to about $3000.00 in 15 years of me being in the sport - mostly because of the new aff program not to mention all the coach jump costs after getting an A lic - all my training after jump #10 was free just had to have fun jumping with other people

[USPAWatchdog 0]

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Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punish(s) its own members"? Yes, although maybe the punishments aren't always what some people think they should be.

Dan you have to kill someone to get your ratings taken away. Seriously. Well, I remeber this guy that forged some stuff to get a static line rating and he got kicked out.

Is it a coincidence that Don Yarling had a presentation at PIA 2001 about the Instructor shortage and shortly thereafter the course standards for AFFI's were lowered? Were they really lowered, or is that just the perception by old schoolers who walked uphill five miles in the snow each way to get the the DZ?

Both.

Why does USPA not protect Instructors that they certify when a DZO demands they violate a BSR?

This is an easy one. HookandSwoop is right. DZOs can do whatever they want. The younger instructors will do anything they ask and the older instructors that know better about safety are asked to leave. I don't know if uspa can do anything about this because it is a business issue. what if USPA actually supported the instructor? Then the DZO would have an instructor working for them that they didn't like.


Why did the DZ inspection program fail?

Because there isnt a DZO alive that really wants to be inspected because they are all guilty of something.

Why doesn't the USPA maintain a manufacturer Service Bulletin database similar to the APF? Good question. I think they should. Has this been formally requested? Does PIA maintain one?

I think just having a good rigger should take care of this.

Why doesn't USPA require minimum performance requirements for Instructors renewing their rating(s)?

YOu would just be giving more money to the uspa rated guys that give out the ratings, and dont follow the rules themselves like that RD?, and do this for a living. Its easy to get a rating and it would be easier to renew that rating. Pay your fee and be renewed.

Why does the USPA require GM DZ's to require skydivers to me USPA members in order to skydive at that DZ?

Money.

How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often? Probably quite often, depending on where you are. What does that have to do with how USPA is run? Surely you aren't suggesting USPA have a paid staff member monitoring activities at every DZ in the country (and some overseas)?

uspa cant police anything because there are no police and uspa cant afford people like that. and what if one of these people just didnt like you?

good job Dan, at least you gave it a try.

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[DSE 3]

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I Do you think the uspa is running the best and absoultely the most efficient that it can be run DSE? What suggestions might you have? I think that you want to argue more than find suggestions.

A-Read my previous posts, I believe I've said I feel the USPA has faults. *Every* lobby and representative organization does.

B-My suggestions go to where they matter, by writing or speaking with the USPA, as opposed to "bitching in a forum" where it's effectivly the sound of one hand clapping.

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I am not really a fan of the uspa. I know I pay them so much a year to renew, but what do you REALLY get from it after you are licensed?

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I think of the uspa like a union gone bad...

But you appreciate the USPA? "Unions gone bad" intimate the USPA is taking your money and not representing you. Myself and others have provided examples of how the USPA *does* represent and does do as they're supposed to. I understand, you're absolutely sure you'll never hit a car or person on a demo or have a cutaway land on powerlines. Not everyone is that gifted.

My suggestion to you (and anyone else) who isn't happy with the USPA, write them a letter. Make a phone call. Suggest away to them, they probably appreciate it. Or maybe they're tired of my emails. I spoke at length with Glen Bangs the other night about a few questions. He's a diplomat, no doubt, but we had a good discussion on what I feel are somewhat difficult points.

As far as USPA self-policing, I believe that at an organizational level, they're doing about as well as any organization that works with government agencies. Certainly not perfect, but representing us well. If my dropzone is threatened by the FAA or Airport Authority, I'm glad the USPA is there to help.

Derek's questions are excellent questions, yet many of the solutions to the "Why's" require money out of our pockets to the USPA.
There are also some excellent suggestions in there that I hope have been forwarded to the USPA, inviting them to comment or implement.

[DanG 1]

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Dan you have to kill someone to get your ratings taken away. Seriously. Well, I remeber this guy that forged some stuff to get a static line rating and he got kicked out.

Well, I know someone who was expelled for an unsafe act on another instructor at a boogie. He did get reinstated a year or two later after filing a petition with the board. USPA's enforcement of BSR violations requires that people get reported. If no one complains/reports a problem then how can USPA do anything? On the other hand, if USPA were required to conduct a thorough investigation of every report they would quickly be bogged down with complaints from rival DZO's that their neighbor let a jumper fall 999 feet from a cloud.

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Both.

Can you explain? Was this done in writing or informally? I'm not AFF rated, but I hear a lot of accusations on here about how easy it is to get a rating these days. I'd like some evidence.

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Because there isnt a DZO alive that really wants to be inspected because they are all guilty of something.

I don't buy that. I agree that you could probably find something against the letter of the law at any DZ you went to, but I still think a USPA inspection program will not work because it takes money, time, and an army of independent evaluators. Hmm, sounds like the government.

- Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'll take a stab, but some of my answers probably aren't what you are looking for.

I am not looking for any particular answers, except maybe honest ones. It is funny how almost all skydivers don’t want to touch this type of questions with a 10-foot pole.

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Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members"? Yes, although maybe the punishments aren't always what some people think they should be. There are always cases where people "get away with" something, but that doesn't mean enforcement is non-existant.

How can you reconcile your ‘yes’ answer with;

“How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often? Probably quite often, depending on where you are.”

USPA admits action is rarely taken, but you realize that BSR’s are broke often. Isn’t that a contradiction? How can you say USPA is self-policing when the vast majority of the time a BSR is violated, nothing happens?

Seems to me that USPA fails to meet the definition of self-policing.

Is it a coincidence that Don Yarling had a presentation at PIA 2001 about the Instructor shortage and shortly thereafter the course standards for AFFI's were lowered? Were they really lowered, or is that just the perception by old schoolers who walked uphill five miles in the snow each way to get the the DZ? I really don't know the history to which you are referring, so I ask you, how were the standards lowered?

This has been well-documented. You can do a search, but here is a short version:

Old course= 6 jumps with a 0-4 points possible on each jump.

New course= get a ‘pass’ on 2 of 3 jumps.

Scenario:

Jump 1: 0/Fail
Jump 2: 2/Pass
Jump 3: 2/Pass
Jump 4: 3/ N/A
Jump 5: 2 / N/A
Jump 6: 2 / N/A

Result:

Old course: Fail
New course: Pass


Over-night the pass rate at the AFF course went from 50% to 85%. Skydivers did not get 35% better overnight.

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Why does USPA not protect Instructors that they certify when a DZO demands they violate a BSR? Examples, please. How do you know they don't?

I have been involved in and witnessed situations of DZO’s demanding Instructors take students in conditions the exceeded the BSR’s, etc or being told if you say anything, you are fired. There is no system in place for Instructors that are faced with a DZO putting profit before the BSR’s.

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Why did the DZ inspection program fail? No clue what you are talking about, please educate.

USPA actually created this program, inspectors were recruited, trained, etc. One DZ was inspected and then the program went away. Do a search.

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Why doesn't the USPA maintain a manufacturer Service Bulletin database similar to the APF? Good question. I think they should. Has this been formally requested? Does PIA maintain one?

Yes/No.

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Why doesn't USPA require minimum performance requirements for Instructors renewing their rating(s)? I agree they have very minimum renewal standards. On the oher hand, I can guarantee there would be a shit storm of complaints if Instructors had to go through evaluation jumps every year. First of all it would cost money, which is evil in many people's eyes, and secondly there would be all kinds of ego bruising. The resistance to this idea would be huge. Not that it's not a good idea.

Ya, it is better to keep egos intact and have sub-standard Instructors. To hell with the students, we have egos to think about! DZO’s make money per student jump, not for the quality of that jump. High quality Instructors is bad for DZO’s, since they want to be treated and paid fairly. Better to fire them and hire new, inexperienced Instructors. If it is obviously such a good idea, why doesn’t USPA do it? Simple, DZO’s no not want it and USPA does want the DZO’s wants it to do.

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Why does the USPA require GM DZ's to require skydivers to me USPA members in order to skydive at that DZ? I don't know, but I think a good explanation is that it would be impossible for USPA to enforce any BSR if a viable excuse would be, "Oh the jumper in question is not a USPA member, so the BSR's don't apply to him/her." Also requiring membership is USPA's way of staying alive. Without it people would still expect USPA to do all of its lobbying efforts, but without any income.

Amazing then that AOPA is doing so well then. Maybe because they serve the needs of their members that their members will send their dues in without being extorted. If the DZ takes ownership of the BSR’s and enforces them as their policies, it doesn’t matter if the jumper is a member or not.

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How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often? Probably quite often, depending on where you are. What does that have to do with how USPA is run? Surely you aren't suggesting USPA have a paid staff member monitoring activities at every DZ in the country (and some overseas)?

They are already in place and called S & TA’s and RD’s.

I once told an RD about a DZO that was doing AFF w/o an AFF rating. She said, “What do you want me to do, take away a rating he doesn’t have?”

Derek

[DanG 1]

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USPA admits action is rarely taken, but you realize that BSR’s are broke often. Isn’t that a contradiction? How can you say USPA is self-policing when the vast majority of the time a BSR is violated, nothing happens?

See your own reply: S&TA's are the first line of defense for violations. If an individual jumper violates a BSR then the S&TA should deal with it locally. I think this happens everywhere, every weekend. Not every violation needs to be dealt with at the BOD level. I agree, however, that when the violator is an S&TA or RD the USPA needs to step up and do something. If it is serious violation (not something like pulling at 1900', but something that puts another individual especially a student at risk) then the penalty should be severe. All this talk about an RD flagrantly violating the BSR's in the midwest troubles me, but most of the talk here is rumor and inuendo. Few cold hard facts have come to light.

WRT the AFF standards, thank you for breaking it down. I agree that the AFF course should be extremely demanding. If the standards were changed simply to pass more people than I think that is a bad idea. On the other hand, if the pass rate went up because of improved pre-courses or training then that is a good thing. Hopefully those forces were at play, too.

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There is no system in place for Instructors that are faced with a DZO putting profit before the BSR’s.

Well, to play devil's advocate, I think there is a system in place. Again, it is the S&TA system. The fact that the system does not work as well as you think it should is another issue. On the other hand, if an instructor were regularly being told to violate the BSR's, then he/she has an ethical obligation to refuse. If they lose their job, then they need to go to USPA and/or the courts. This may sound sucky, but that's the way it works in the real world.

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Ya, it is better to keep egos intact and have sub-standard Instructors. To hell with the students, we have egos to think about! DZO’s make money per student jump, not for the quality of that jump. High quality Instructors is bad for DZO’s, since they want to be treated and paid fairly. Better to fire them and hire new, inexperienced Instructors. If it is obviously such a good idea, why doesn’t USPA do it? Simple, DZO’s no not want it and USPA does want the DZO’s wants it to do.

I never said I didn't think it was a good idea, I just said there would be a lot of resistance. As a coach I would gladly submit to regular eval jumps as long as the evaluator were fair and impartial. Also, if I had to buy two slots and an evaluation fee every weekend before I could work I would just let my rating drop.

I don't know how the AOPA works, but your argument assumes that the USPA is somehow doing a bad job of the one thing they have in common: lobbying. I disagree. Also, AFAIK the AOPA does not attempt to do what the USPA does regarding standards development and enforcement. That's what the FAA is for, so I don't think the AOPA/USPA comparison is apples to apples.

- Dan G

[yarak 0]

At least the USPA ensures that people with responsiblity have at least some training and experience. (instructor ratings).

All i can say is that the USPA is better than a government controlled sport. If it werent for the threat of the government screwing us all over I would say down with the USPA. Everyone run amuck and survival of the smartest. The problem is that someone dies and the government thinks they need to act to keep it from hapening again. The fact is that people die! Its the way nature works. We shouldnt allow the government to protect us from ourselves. At least the USPA is a temporary buffer zone between you and quasi-communism.

in short, its the lesser of two evils. unfortuneatly thats what most of our freedom has been diluted down too over the last 230 yrs. The illusion of choice between two evils.

The land of the free is now the land of the safety police. We cant escape the government, not even at 14000ft. They will tell you what you will and wont do. Because they own everything, and you have no God given rights unless they approve it.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[marks2065 0]

what happens when the s&ta is the dzo ? it is that way at many dz's - it the dz's and dzo's need to be spot inspected by the rd's to keep things on the level

[DanG 1]

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what happens when the s&ta is the dzo ? it is that way at many dz's - it the dz's and dzo's need to be spot inspected by the rd's to keep things on the level

I agree, that is a less than ideal situation. There is also such a thing as a regional S&TA. They should work hand-in-hand with the RD to keep an eye on what goes on in their region. Everyone just needs to realize that more USPA enforcement efforts mean more money, therefore higher dues and higher fees. You (not you personally) can't have it both ways.

-Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

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See your own reply: S&TA's are the first line of defense for violations. If an individual jumper violates a BSR then the S&TA should deal with it locally. I think this happens everywhere, every weekend. Not every violation needs to be dealt with at the BOD level. I agree, however, that when the violator is an S&TA or RD the USPA needs to step up and do something. If it is serious violation (not something like pulling at 1900', but something that puts another individual especially a student at risk) then the penalty should be severe. All this talk about an RD flagrantly violating the BSR's in the midwest troubles me, but most of the talk here is rumor and inuendo. Few cold hard facts have come to light.

I agree, with everything except that the S & TA's are enforcing the BSR's.

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Well, to play devil's advocate, I think there is a system in place. Again, it is the S&TA system. The fact that the system does not work as well as you think it should is another issue. On the other hand, if an instructor were regularly being told to violate the BSR's, then he/she has an ethical obligation to refuse. If they lose their job, then they need to go to USPA and/or the courts. This may sound sucky, but that's the way it works in the real world.

If you don't see a connection between the lowering of the AFFI standards and AFFI having no recourse since they can replaced easily, then you have missed my point. DZO's simply say, if you don't like it, you know your options. AFFI's are a dime a dozen. And DZO's keep it that way so that they can easily replace them.

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I never said I didn't think it was a good idea, I just said there would be a lot of resistance. As a coach I would gladly submit to regular eval jumps as long as the evaluator were fair and impartial. Also, if I had to buy two slots and an evaluation fee every weekend before I could work I would just let my rating drop.

It is a simple solution, an annual eval jump with an evaluator. Not expensive and should be a no-brainr if the AFFI is meeting the standard.

My reference to AOPA is they do not have sort of mandatory membership and they have a large membership. They have members because they do a good job of meeting their members needs. How many skydivers would pay USPA membership dues if they didn't have to? I think not many. Why is that? Why can't USPA attract members based upon it's services to those members while AOPA can?

If the USPA continues to fail in it's role of self-policing, eventually the FAA will step in. That is bad.

Derek

[DanG 1]

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If you don't see a connection between the lowering of the AFFI standards and AFFI having no recourse since they can replaced easily, then you have missed my point. DZO's simply say, if you don't like it, you know your options. AFFI's are a dime a dozen. And DZO's keep it that way so that they can easily replace them.

I did miss your point. I get it now. Would you be in favor of USPA implementing a stronger, non-volunteer based S&TA type system? If so, would you be in favor of a dues/fees increase to support it? I think it would be very expensive. Skydivers will gladly pay $6000 for a new rig, but freak out when USPA raises the membership fee by a few dollars.

AOPA membership costs $39 per year according to their website, and I agree it looks like they have a lot to offer. What I didn't see any mention of, however, if a self-policing role.

Maybe one reason that AOPA is able to attract so many members is that the GA community already has the Feds intervening in every aspect of their activity. If more skydivers were aware of the lobbying efforts of USPA it might be less maligned. As an aside, what is the percentage of pilots that are or are not AOPA members? Also, I think in general the AOPA member is much more affluent than the average USPA member so that could be a factor. If USPA did not exist I would certainly pay to be a member of a pro-skydiving lobby, but I don't have to since USPA does exist.

3rd party liability insurance is nice, too. I think if USPA membership were not required to jump at USPA GM GZ's many DZ's would still require it just for the insurance. I know my DZ would.

This is a good discussion. Thanks.

- Dan G

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I did miss your point. I get it now. Would you be in favor of USPA implementing a stronger, non-volunteer based S&TA type system?

No. I would be in favor of USPA serving it's members and not the DZO's.

I would be in favor of USPA resurrecting the inspection program, with those DZ's that pass being placed on a list on USPA's web site and another list of the DZ's that failed and why.

I would be in favor of the GM program being eliminated.

I would be in favor of the AFF course standards being raised to pre-2001 levels.

I would be in favor of annual eval jumps for Instructors, tandem, AFF, etc.

I would be in favor of higher pay for more experienced, higher quality Instructors.

I would be in favor of USPA actually doing what they say they do and self-policing so that the FAA never steps in.

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AOPA membership costs $39 per year according to their website, and I agree it looks like they have a lot to offer. What I didn't see any mention of, however, if a self-policing role.

Right, they do not self-police nor claim to. What does USPA spend on self-policing every year? $11 per member? That would bring the net down to the same as AOPA, $39. With that voluntary membership money, they do a lor for it's members. What does USPA do with it's $50 per member that is mandatory? Why can't USPA be as sucessful as USPA in generating membership dues? Why must they become DZO's lao dogs by trading mandatory membership enforced by DZO's in return for USPA serving DZO's and not it's members?

There is a conflict of interest and USPA does not do what it says it does. Eventually, this will mean the FAA will step in and do it. For example, why is it that there is no pattern in safety levels between GM and non-GM DZ's? If the GM program and USPA was doing it's job, wouldn't GM DZ's be much safer places to jump than non GM DZ's?

Skydivers are forced to support the DZO's organization. Why? Simple, if the DZO's simply funded it, they wouldn't have the power of numbers. So they work with USPA and require the jumpers to be members. Then they control it to work for them. What a scam.

Derek

[DSE 3]

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So they work with USPA and require the jumpers to be members. Then they control it to work for them. What a scam.

Derek,
if it's a scam, then so is the NAB, the DGA, AFTRA, SAG, RIAA, SMPTE and a few other alphabet orgs I/we belong to. It's no different, and the song is the same in some of those groups, particularly the RIAA right now.

I've visited many dropzones, but only truly worked at a couple. I've yet to see most of the problems you describe at the DZ level ie; DZO's forcing instructors to break BSRs, low quality AFFI's vs more experienced AFFI's (at our DZ, the DZO recently hired two very experienced AFFI's formerly from the Perris program/many years of experience and they get students first over others that have been at the DZ for a long time), etc. Just because I haven't seen it and just because you have seen it doesn't make it any more or less accurate to say it's happening everywhere, but I just can't see it the way you do. We have an excellent S&TA who regularly argues with the DZO about various points. So does our DZM. Yet our DZO is very fair, friendly, and business oriented (as well as a very current skydiver). Maybe I need more jading.
I do see some problems, some are so blatant that it makes no sense that they're not more swiftly and decisively dealt with, but that doesn't make them useless.

Comparing them to AOPA seems silly when AOPA has nearly half a million members and has monstrous contributions from members like John Travolta, Kurt Russell, Phil Boyer, huge manufacturer dollars, and a *much* higher cost of entry.
So on one hand, we have people bitching about the cost of skydiving and USPA-related costs, and on the other hand, people demanding more from their dollar. Where is the balance? What does USPA need to do to please more people? Should they draw and quarter the tandem instructor that took the 12 year old? (personally, I feel more should have been done, but I don't have all the facts.)

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I would be in favor of USPA resurrecting the inspection program, with those DZ's that pass being placed on a list on USPA's web site and another list of the DZ's that failed and why.

I would be in favor of the AFF course standards being raised to pre-2001 levels.

I would be in favor of annual eval jumps for Instructors, tandem, AFF, etc.

I would be in favor of higher pay for more experienced, higher quality Instructors.

Most folks that care about the sport would probably like to see the same. But who pays for it? Who pays for the RD to fly from place to place to examine each DZ? Who pays for the eval jumps? The TI? Then you've got the TI screaming because he's got a jump to pay for with an evaluator. Should the evaluator jump for free? Does the TI pay the eval? Does the DZ pay the eval? Does the USPA pay the eval? Where do those funds come from?
I disagree with the concept of doing away with the GM program, simply because it needs to exist as an appeasement to the FAA, if the FAA is anything like the FCC. but now we're treading into an area I know little about (GM program).

I fail to see where they're not self-policing. What I see perhaps, is that they're not catching speeders, but they're catching the more egregious violators.

But from my perspective as a member of several non-skydiving industry groups...the USPA isn't any different than those representative organizations and they have far less revenue with which to operate.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Derek,
if it's a scam, then so is the NAB, the DGA, AFTRA, SAG, RIAA, SMPTE and a few other alphabet orgs I/we belong to. It's no different, and the song is the same in some of those groups, particularly the RIAA right now.

In don't know those organizations. Just seems to me that the people paying the dues get the leftovers after the DZO's eat. USPA's unofficial motto is what is good for DZ's is good for skydivers. Now I agree that on some level that makes complete sense, but what happens when USPA must make a choice between the skydiver and the DZO? Who wins? What if a workers union represented both the factory and the workers? Now, the more money the factory makes, the more they can afford to pay the workers. Now a good union will get the workers what they deserve so that both the factory and the workers prosper. If the union is controlled by the factory owner, the union won't get the workers the compensation they deserve. A union cannot serve 2 masters.

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I've yet to see most of the problems you describe at the DZ level

That is why we see things differently.

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Comparing them to AOPA seems silly when AOPA has nearly half a million members and has monstrous contributions from members like John Travolta, Kurt Russell, Phil Boyer, huge manufacturer dollars, and a *much* higher cost of entry.

I just wonder why AOPA can attract members voluntarily and USPA must resort to mandatory membership. I am aware that AOPA has a much higher budget, etc, but they survive on voluntary membership. I believe it is because they effectively meet their member's needs, while USPA does not.

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Who pays for the RD to fly from place to place to examine each DZ?

Isn't it part of the RD"s responsibility to visit the DZ's within their region?

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Who pays for the eval jumps? The TI? Then you've got the TI screaming because he's got a jump to pay for with an evaluator.

Too bad, let scream all they want. IF they are professional they will see that re currency eval/training is a good thing for them.

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Should the evaluator jump for free? Does the TI pay the eval? Does the DZ pay the eval? Does the USPA pay the eval? Where do those funds come from?

The Instructor pays for the training/eval jump. 1 jump every year or 2 is not a large amount of money.

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I disagree with the concept of doing away with the GM program, simply because it needs to exist as an appeasement to the FAA, if the FAA is anything like the FCC. but now we're treading into an area I know little about (GM program).

The GM program is a sham. The public sees it as a stamp of approval from the USPA. In reality all it is is the DZO sent USPA a check.

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I fail to see where they're not self-policing. What I see perhaps, is that they're not catching speeders, but they're catching the more egregious violators.

I don't think USPA needs to rule with an iron fist, but they do need to do a much better job. Look at Canada.

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But from my perspective as a member of several non-skydiving industry groups...the USPA isn't any different than those representative organizations and they have far less revenue with which to operate.

USPA needs to put the skydiver's needs ahead of the DZ's needs.

Derek

[PhreeZone 15]

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I don't think USPA needs to rule with an iron fist, but they do need to do a much better job. Look at Canada.

I don't think you want to use Canada as an example since they have/had 2 national organizations since they had internal politics that made some people leave and start their own group. Also look up info on the Skydive Ranch its story is intersting in terms of incidents.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

"good point to raise.... this is happening now to us in Canada. It looks like the government is about to regulate skydiving and we don't have, and can't get, much information about what they are going to do to us.

Was this because CSPA didn't do a good enough job?

Some will say yes and site examples, some from very long ago, where CSPA didn't act as effectively as some, probably a very vocal minority, would have hoped.

Others will tell you its because of a non-CSPA dropzone having several accidents that were highly visible to the public and all the bad press skydiving got because of these accidents.

Unfortunately the very vocal few and the bad press together are going to see skydiving regulated in Canada and the government has not been very open to working with CSPA to develop whatever regulations they are going to impose on us."

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I don't think you want to use Canada as an example

I meant as an example of what could happen if USPA continues to do a poor job.

Derek

[2shay 0]

I have sent e mails and reccomendations to my regional director on a few things, trust me I am not the type to bitch and talk trash on forums as it may appear just voicing my opinion.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[kallend 1,635]

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Comparing them to AOPA seems silly when AOPA has nearly half a million members and has monstrous contributions from members like John Travolta, Kurt Russell, Phil Boyer, huge manufacturer dollars, and a *much* higher cost of entry.

I wish that AOPA, with all its resources, had done as good a job keeping the government off general aviation as USPA has done keeping the government off skydiving.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I wish that AOPA, with all its resources, had done as good a job keeping the government off general aviation as USPA has done keeping the government off skydiving.

Is there someplace that describes specifically what USPA has done? I see it more as the FAA doesn't want to be bothered with skyding if they can help it vs. the USPA has done a great job.

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Does the USPA "monitor its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members"? Yes, although maybe the punishments aren't always what some people think they should be. There are always cases where people "get away with" something, but that doesn't mean enforcement is non-existant.

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How can you reconcile your ‘yes’ answer with;

“How often are the BSR's violated ? Rarely? Often? Probably quite often, depending on where you are.”

USPA admits action is rarely taken, but you realize that BSR’s are broke often. Isn’t that a contradiction? How can you say USPA is self-policing when the vast majority of the time a BSR is violated, nothing happens?

The same way every other large organization in the world does. The largest, least effective organization of people I personally belong to is called the United States of America.

I think all would agree that this organization "monitors its own adherence to legal, ethical, or safety standards" and "directly monitor(s) and punishe(s) its own members". I think we all also would agree that they do a pretty shitty job of it, and that various standards, laws, ect are violated billions of times per day by hundreds of millions of people, the vast majority of whom are not punished. Yet, it would be hard to say we're not self-policing, what with the FBI and a hundred bazillion state troopers waiting at every corner to give me traffic tickets.

At the same time, most of these violations aren't important, and it's not the end of the world that people aren't punished for every single one. That goes for the USA and USPA equally.

I think one should start by asking if USPA does a better or worse job of self-policing it's members (at all levels, from president down to newbies) than the country it resides in... I vote it does a better job, and that's a good start.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."