billvon 2,478 #1 February 7, 2005 On Saturday at Perris we had a minor landing collision that illustrated the problems you can see in heavy traffic. After the Rumbleseat meet, Dan BC organized a ~35 way to celebrate the end of the event. It was made up of members of all 5 teams, with experience levels ranging from low time to very high time. He spent some time going over safety issues including landing patterns. The jump built most of the way, with a few people out, lost or low. Breakoff was OK. As I was flying back I saw a lot of confused traffic; I had to dodge 3 people who were heading at me but didn't see me. I had to sacrifice accuracy for traffic avoidance and thus landed off the far edge of the grass area. I landed behind and in formation with someone (we'll call him jumper A) who had a slightly lower wing loading, but we started out with plenty of separation so it was no problem. We landed at about the same time, and I turned around to see who was coming in after us. Another jumper (we'll call her jumper B) was about to land, and was on course to land about five feet to my left. She passed me safely, but jumper A's canopy had collapsed to his left and he hadn't seen her yet. She hit his canopy dead center at about 4 feet off the ground. It picked him up off his feet and pulled him about 5 feet backwards; jumper B fell to the ground and rolled. Neither jumper was hurt, although both got very muddy. Afterwards jumper B said she had gotten "stuck" in the corner between jumper A and I and some poles/windblades on the side of the grass area. She didn't want to turn low, since she had heard that turning low was very bad. I talked to her for a little while about how to turn low if she had to (and more importantly how to not get into a position where you needed to.) Things to learn from this incident: 1. Land safe, not close. If you're flying back and notice spastic canopy control from people setting up to land in the main area it might be a good idea to not aim for it. 2. Fly the pattern! On the 372 way we had four landing areas for the different sectors, and had very little problems with landing ~100 people per landing area - because everyone followed the pattern. As demonstrated here, if you don't follow the pattern even 35 people can be a problem. 3. Learn to flat turn/flare turn, so if you ever do get stuck on final without too many options, you'll have one more option to work with. 4. The skydive isn't over until you're back at the packing area. After landing it's a good idea to get control of your canopy and look back downwind to see who's coming in after you. Most of the time the best thing to do is gather your canopy and stand still; most people can avoid stationary objects a lot more easily than moving ones. Rarely a dodge may be needed - but you can't know that unless you look. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 February 7, 2005 Implied several times, but I'd like to state it clearly..... If your inteded landing area looks crouded, or will be by the time you get there LAND OUT! I've been hit by someone in the landings area and had jumpers snag and land on my gear. It makess me quite angry.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 February 7, 2005 Doesn't seem to apply to this, but don't kite your canopy through a busy landing area either. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 February 7, 2005 QuoteDoesn't seem to apply to this, but don't kite your canopy through a busy landing area either. Yeah that chaps my ass too.......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #5 February 7, 2005 >but don't kite your canopy through a busy landing area either. Jumper A wasn't kiting his canopy, but he wasn't collapsing it either. The area was muddy and I think he was looking at the ground to avoid the worst of the mud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #6 February 8, 2005 The north landing area was pretty empty. I landed there on all four of our jumps, and Tim had me back to the packing area before most of the people who landed on the grass were able to walk across. "Harry -- Why did you land all the way out there? Hardly anybody else did." Your second sentence answered the question, As the proverb goes -- long walk better than short stretcher ride. Blue Skies! Harry P.S. -- It's OK to tip the drive of the pick up truck."Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 February 8, 2005 QuoteP.S. -- It's OK to tip the drive of the pick up truck. Tim enjoys a nice cold Budweiser most days after he's done driving. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 563 #8 February 8, 2005 Reminds me of similar incident about 8 years ago in Perris. The victim suffered a fractured leg and the guilty bastard was banned from jumping in the USA for a year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #9 February 8, 2005 I always land out when jumping at Perris. The truck driver always has money on his beer tab at the end of the day.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #10 February 8, 2005 OK, maybe this is a silly question but how about more grass at Perris? Everyone aims for the grass strip and the only real issue is it's narrow, maybe this improves pattern discipline(?), but really it's no better than any other area, it's just that the green stuff is the designated landing area so why not extend the strip away from the runway to make a square? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #11 February 8, 2005 >OK, maybe this is a silly question but how about more grass at Perris? Growing grass at Perris is just slightly less difficult than growing grass in Eloy. It's pretty much a desert. What grass there is gets a LOT of water, and Socal doesn't have all that much water to spare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #12 February 9, 2005 I don't know if it was a factor, but I really dislike the "first person down sets the pattern" rule. It takes time and attention to determine which way the pattern is going to go that would be better spent on airspace awareness. Like Bill, I found at the 220-something sequential record that traffic was not a problem because everybody was prohibited from spiraling and was limited to 90 degree turns and a strict pattern. Another nice thing they did at Z-Hills druing the record (that they also did at Perris this year at one point) was lock down the wind direction indicator and mandate that everyone land into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #13 February 9, 2005 Quote>OK, maybe this is a silly question but how about more grass at Perris? Growing grass at Perris is just slightly less difficult than growing grass in Eloy. It's pretty much a desert. What grass there is gets a LOT of water, and Socal doesn't have all that much water to spare. You could always transplant some grass from the runway.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #14 February 10, 2005 QuoteI don't know if it was a factor, but I really dislike the "first person down sets the pattern" rule. It takes time and attention to determine which way the pattern is going to go that would be better spent on airspace awareness. Like Bill, I found at the 220-something sequential record that traffic was not a problem because everybody was prohibited from spiraling and was limited to 90 degree turns and a strict pattern. Another nice thing they did at Z-Hills druing the record (that they also did at Perris this year at one point) was lock down the wind direction indicator and mandate that everyone land into the wind. Locking down the tetrahedron is one of the most stupidest things a DZ can do. The tetrahedron indicates wind direction. If on some 'special' jumps you lock it down to indicate landing direction you screw people that read the tetrahedron for wind direction. Landing direction can be indicated by some other means. On the 300-ways at Eloy, a large yellow crepe paper arrow was placed on the main landing area to indicate landing direction. The tetrahedron was left alone. It is of importance to know wind direction when landing in an area that has specific directions to land. It is nice to know if you have a cross wind or not. Perris made a bone-head move at the POPS loads this past summer. Someone locked down the tetrahedron, pointing to the North. It was left locked even after the POPS loads were done. On the sunset load that day, the winds changed to be from the South. Five jumpers on that load landed downwind in about a 10 mph wind. The first jumper used the tetrahedron and only the tetrahedron to determine wind direction. He landed to the North. The others followed because he was he first down. Some of these jumpers did realize that there was something amiss with the tetrahedron. I asked the first jumper down about this when he came back across the runway. He did not look at the wind socks or check ground speed because he always used the tetrahedron to determine wind direction. That is something the vast majority of jumpers do. Fortunately, no one was hurt. I was watching the landings and it took me a few minutes to realize that the tetrahedron was locked down. The wind socks and wind blades all showed wind from the south. The tetrahedron showed wind from the north. The rest of the jumpers on the sunset load landed to the south. Locking down or holding the tetrahedron is NOT the way to indicate landing direction on big-ways. Use another indicator such as a crepe paper arrow. In the meantime, I ignore the tetrahedron on big-ways at Perris. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #15 February 10, 2005 QuoteOK, maybe this is a silly question but how about more grass at Perris? Everyone aims for the grass strip and the only real issue is it's narrow, maybe this improves pattern discipline(?), but really it's no better than any other area, it's just that the green stuff is the designated landing area so why not extend the strip away from the runway to make a square? The grass at Perris is not considered the 'designated landing area'. It is, however, opted for by most people who want to keep their gear cleaner and have a shorter walk back. In any safety briefing at Perris, they emphasize their policy that the entire triangle, including the north field, is the designated landing area. The planes fly jump run and green light accordingly. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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