ISP

[justaman 0]

I would like help converting DZ to ISP. Any help would be nice.

Do or do not

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Simple. It's all covered in the Skydivers Information Manual. You can teach right out of the book if you are too lazy to make your own handouts.

Chuck

[justaman 0]

Yes I agree with you. It is simple and it is all in the book. Where the issue is, is that the folks( the old school types) that thinking that this way works why change. along with it is to many jumps and it costs more, and so on.

Do or do not

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Yes I agree with you. It is simple and it is all in the book. Where the issue is, is that the folks( the old school types) that thinking that this way works why change. along with it is to many jumps and it costs more, and so on.

Some people like to leave the things they have taught for year, the same way.
It's the way they run their DZ and probably will never change until someone else buys the DZ from them.

Thats ok, because it's THEIR DZ.

I on the other hand, find the new ISP is making my private student program easier to run with just myself and no other Instructors.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[dropzonefool 0]

I'm glad you brought this back up to the top of the page Justaman. I wanted to comment but you were cut short by others and felt I was kicking a dead horse. By posting about the "old timers" and their way of training I have in common with you. I am the only Instructor at my home DZ to hold a Coach rating. The rest were grandfathered to Instructors in from Jumpmasters.

What I find helps is to start an A-license Proficiency card with the students logbook, as the student progresses they will bring their logbook to their Instructor. It will force the old school jumpmasters to LOOK at the new way of training. Soon the students will start requesting the Instructors who will assure their training is up to the ISP and the Old school JM will fade out.

I'm not trying to say that all of the old timers are ignorant, they just have been doing this for so long they seem uninterested in ISP or the USPA for that mater. Personally I really hate to have to take a logbook and go through it with a 2 page pro card and start looking for the skills completed in that logbook by accident, and then returning to the student and say well " your gonna have to do this, or that to get the A-lisence" The student says usually "Why is that important? or I have already done that". To which I respond " It's a requirement in black and white (yellow) and it is not in your logbook.
The students get pissed off cause they have (met the requirements of the Instructor) but not the requirements of the USPA. They also get pissed off cause they spent their money and jumps on training and they received less than they expected. They do not meet the requirements for an A

[skydiverjerry 0]

hi there
gota jump in here coz i'm an old timer skydiver.
i agrea on some of your points us old guys do some times say it works its not broke dont fix it.
but i like to think that we also say you know a better way to teach it do it well SHOW ME prove to me that there is a better way.

skydiving requires an open mind, i certainaly advocate ony form of improving this sport,

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[justaman 0]

Thanks for the input but, I'am trying to get the program to work. Work for the people learning to skydive.
I find that it is more productive for them if all their goals are well understood and at the end they have their A card all done. They are happy they have become full on skydivers and that is good all around.

Do or do not

[justaman 0]

Being an old timer I'am glad you think we are not ignorant.
Any ways. I know that I have had a few changes in my thinking over the past 20 yrs. All of this due to getting out away from the same old thing. I do this for those that are up and coming. I try to give them the knowledge that was given me or that I sought out. There are better ways to do things. We should find them. New things come along and that is not say that they all are better but, at least take a look. Try them out. I find it very hard to say anything bad or good until I get in there and give it an honest try.

Do or do not

[justaman 0]

AS an old guy to an old guy. Some times it's not broke there is just a better way.

I think you can remember those that were trained only with the static line progression method because that was all there was.Then AFF came along. Are there pros and cons with each? I think so, do I think that you can end up with a skydiver at the end of both? Yes.
Things do change for the better if we ensure that they do.That is a proactive approach.

Do or do not

[riggerrob 562]

What I find helps is to start an A-license Proficiency card with the students logbook, as the student progresses they will bring their logbook to their Instructor. It will force the old school jumpmasters to LOOK at the new way of training. Soon the students will start requesting the Instructors who will assure their training is up to the ISP and the Old school JM will fade out.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This spring, hand every student an ISP card and insist that they bring it to every briefing or de-brief.

[skr 1]

> I would like help converting DZ to ISP. Any help would be nice.

Here's how I went about it:

http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/index.html#learning

The only real changes I made were to emphasize
the parachuting skills more heavily up front and
push the freefall skills more into the last half, and
to add a little room for enjoyment so it wasn't all
grim requirements.

Skr

[tkhayes 153]

Great stuff, thanks

[skr 1]

> Great stuff, thanks

:-)

Thanks. I reread some of it and there is one thing
I need to change some time. There are several
mentions of "the 45 degree rule".

I always used that phrase to mean watch the previous
group fall behind the plane, and when they are far enough
back, go.

That works when there are no uppers, and in the context
of people being taught to stare at the green light and
count 5 seconds, getting people to stick their heads out
the door seemed like progress.

In the last few years that phrase has taken on a more
rigid and deservedly discredited meaning, so I should
replace it with some other phrase like " the fall far enough
behind the plane rule" or something.


This is the wrong place to start an exit separation discussion
but just below the coach program stuff is a section that
starts with "Dealing with Uppers". It's at

http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/sg_skr_dealing_1_uppers.html

I think (I hope :-) :-) that's the last thing I'll ever say on
the subject.



I think USPA tried to cram too much into the A license.

What people really need in their early jumps are all the
parachuting skills. There is plenty of room in the B and C
license to develop all the other stuff.

Skr

[peek 20]

Rob said:
"It will force the old school jumpmasters to LOOK at the new way of training. Soon the students will start requesting the Instructors who will assure their training is up to the ISP and the Old school JM will fade out."


I've been meaning to ask someone for a while now, so this is not meant just for Rob (and anyone else with some specific examples can chime in here too):

Just who are these "old jumpmasters" and what are they doing or not doing?

Students need to have an A license proficiency card filled out to get a USPA "A" license, so what can any instructor being doing so wrong?

Or are you not talking about USPA?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Just who are these "old jumpmasters" and what are they doing or not doing?

AFFI's that got their ratings a long time ago and still teach the same way they did back then.

Teaching methods, techniques, and what is taught has changed. Not all Instructors have kept up with those changes. There are still a lot of DZ's that teach 'old school' AFF and the students lose out.

Derek

[justaman 0]

It is not just Jumpmasters (old term) but. it works. The DZO sets the tone of the drop zone good , bad, right or wrong.

It's more of what can WE do better not what is done wrong.

Do or do not

[justaman 0]

Dude,

Thanks for saying that (the student looses)
It's really not about right or wrong. It is about BETTER!

Thanks again

Do or do not

[Hooknswoop 19]

Send me an e-mail and I'll send you the AFP Syllabus. lots of great information in there.

Derek

[justaman 0]

Derek,

E-mail on the way. I hope alot. I have seen far to many.

Do or do not

[peek 20]

Derek said about some instructors:
AFFI's that got their ratings a long time ago and still teach the same way they did back then. There are still a lot of DZ's that teach 'old school' AFF and the students lose out.

Question to all:
I apologize, maybe I don't ask for enough detail, but I am still interested in what is actually being taught by some of the instructors that people comment about negatively.

Is it something like calling the jumps "levels" rather than "categories"?

Is it not following the ISP progression closely?

Is it not giving them an "A" license proficiency card and never signing anything on it?

Is it teaching the freefall skills mainly until the student is cleared for solo freefall, and having never been taught much canopy control?


I'm trying to figure out the level of the problems in instruction described. I'm curious about this because people have differing opinions about what good instruction is.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Derek said about some instructors:
AFFI's that got their ratings a long time ago and still teach the same way they did back then. There are still a lot of DZ's that teach 'old school' AFF and the students lose out.

Question to all:
I apologize, maybe I don't ask for enough detail, but I am still interested in what is actually being taught by some of the instructors that people comment about negatively.

That’s my fault, I didn’t answer your question fully.

Teaching a student to skydive in 7 jumps doesn’t teach them anything besides how to jump out of an airplane by yourself and survive in ideal conditions. 7 jumps isn’t enough for a student to learn to spot, fly a canopy, fly a canopy in traffic, fly relative to others in free fall, track, change/match fall rates, etc. After traditional AFF, the student knows just enough o be dangerous. 90%+ can’t dive out after someone and dock on them, fly a canopy in traffic, or land anywhere near the target. Some schools still use main ripcords, which sets up the student for failure the first time they jump a throw out PC. Even worse is SOS. If they have a malfunction on their shiny new rig with only 8-30 or so skydives (since they don’t pack very well or at all), they may revert back to their initial training and fire their reserve into a malfunctioning main.

I see AFFI’s still teaching arching from the chest, in the ‘box man’ position, with the arms way up as high as they can get them. It’s no wonder they are unstable and can’t turn. I would teach students to lower their arms so that their elbows are below their shoulders. This relaxes the chest which takes away the tension in their upper body and allows them to arch from the pelvis. Tension in the upper body gives the student the false impression that they are arching, even if they aren’t and makes it difficult for them to relax since they are working to hold that tension.

I see AFFI’s sign off jumpers that can’t track very well or straight or at all. Tracking is a survival skill, the better you track, the safer you are. Turning 30 points is great, but if you can’t track, you could die. They don’t explain to the student that tracking isn’t about speed, it is about angle, getting the most horizontal distance for every foot you fall. The vast majority of skydivers I see do not track as well as they could. I can (well I guess could) out track almost anyone. Not because I am a great tracker, but because most everyone doesn’t track to their full potential. This stems from their initial training. Spending several skydives working on nothing but tracking, heading control first, then adding better and better angle to it after first explaining tracking theory will truly train someone how to track. I actually had an AFP student out track me one. She got the jump me, and all I could do was stay even. I started catching up when she stopped her 6-9 second track (starting at 10,000 feet) to check altitude and see what direction I was indicating for the next track. Spending probably a total of 25-30 seconds learning to track on a couple of AFF dives after just being told to look at the horizon and sweep your arms and legs back is not enough. I would also teach to fully extend their legs (getting a good side shot w/ a digital camera in a Sidewinder helmet) to show them that their legs aren’t fully extended and/or they are still arched at the waist, then slowly sweep their arms back to maintain heading control. I would explain as part of the theory, that tracking in a circle means you went no where and then demonstrate how with larger and larger formations, how much more critical heading control becomes to ensure separation.

Kind of disorganized, but that is two examples, tracking and body position, of old/new training methods. I could get into canopy control, but I’m tired of typing. The point is, training methods have changed and been updated while some Instructors haven’t changed from ‘old school’ AFF. There is a better way, but they figure why change (change is work) and since their methods work, why bother? I would and did put up (almost) any of my AFP students against (almost) any AFF student when they both have 25 skydives.

Derek

[justaman 0]

Your asking for a tell me what is this or that.

Please Please do not take this wrong but, do you know that if you sit down and go through the ISP with the A card it will be very clear what is going on. I'am glad that your really asking questions about this and your asking what is going on but, do you teach the whole of ISP or just what fits for you ( I may be should not say that ) If you really go through the ISP there are 14 jumps (you really have to go through it to find them) Then at the end of going through that you can see what the porgam is about. you may not agree but, you don't have to.

sorry again not meant to be mean. Please let me know if I made it better or worst. I'am looking at this like I'am a idiot. That can't talk.

Do or do not

[peek 20]

Derek, thanks, now I have to do a lot of typing. This is a wide variety of stuff, so I'll comment on some of it.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I usually think that many problems can be solved by talking to people about them.


"Teaching a student to skydive in 7 jumps doesn’t teach them anything besides how to jump out of an airplane by yourself and survive in ideal conditions."

This seems to be a comment about the way a number of DZs treated the "traditional AFF" program. Do the freefall stuff and turn them loose into the skydiving world. But to me it seems that most places created a "Level 8" even if USPA had not specified this. Having them jump with staff or knowledgable experienced jumpers. This type of program required students motivated to learn by asking a lot of questions. I've seen it work well.

But now things are in place to make that better. Now that there is an "A" license proficiency card I would have to think that it forces the student to force instructors to teach them what they need to fill it out. To all: Is this working?


"Some schools still use main ripcords, which sets up the student for failure the first time they jump a throw out PC."

I haven't really seen that to be a problem. Where I instruct they use a cable type ripcord with PVC handle in the BOC position, so transition training is only to throw it away.

This subject would make for another good discussion, meaning input from instructors on how well the transition goes.


"Even worse is SOS."
Now that the "universal" system is available I would agree. It would be nice to identify those still using SOS and let them know how easy a conversion is. Some rig manufacturers have conversion kits.


"I see AFFI’s still teaching arching from the chest, in the ‘box man’ position, with the arms way up as high as they can get them."

That is definitely "old school". I have to wonder why they would do that. If I saw someone do that I would pull them aside and try to convince them them to try teaching a better freefall position (one that they use for example).


An interesting note: Where I instruct the static line program is popular. They use a modified Roger Nelson video tape where the "hard arch X position" is taught. I haven't seen many problems getting students to transition to a nice relaxed freefall body position later on in their progression.


"I see AFFI’s sign off jumpers that can’t track very well or straight or at all. .... Spending several skydives working on nothing but tracking, heading control first, then adding better and better angle ...."

When to sign off as OK is a good question. Everyone I know tells students that during there solo jumps before getting licensed is the time to really polish that track, and then when they do the "check dive" they should be good at it.

I must say that for anyone to get really good a tracking they must be observed by experienced jumpers when they start doing formation skydiving, and be given more pointers then.



To the group:

I would like to hear some more examples of questionable instruction that you have seen and what you think we can do to improve things.

[justaman 0]

I hear force alot. I would hope that want to do would come to be the reality. (optimistic?)

Retraining for pilot chutes and two handles. I have heard out of DZO's mouths (will not be metioned) why do that it has been ok before. Along with why move the pilot chute from the leg it's only a problem some times. Real reason money. Back to it. Well begun is half done. Retraining is a long road. We have the ablity to train them right the frist time and it is better. Reason. People will revert back to what they learned frist in a stressful situation. Unless the have had a serious amount of training.

Tracking. ISP Category F lays it out as does the A license proficiency card and A license progression card.

Train them right. Train them to standard. Hold to the standard. It is in there you have to know it before you can teach it.

Do or do not

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Gary, turn your private messages on and I will be glad to give you at least two examples of major turbine dropzones which teach seven-level AFF and then "set them free".

Chuck Blue
D-12501