Demo jump question follow up.

[SPAWNmaster 0]

awesome. fyi, by the time this winter comes around if you jump as often as you plan to, by 100 jumps you should be able to set up without a wind sock.

[DougH 270]

Only time will tell, I know a few jumpers with 100 or so jumps who still don't understand that you eat the little end of the carrot.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[airtwardo 6]

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Correct me if I am wrong, but if he is a USPA member he needs to follow the BSR's if he is at a group member dropzone or not.

I am not saying this is right, wrong, or otherwise; but I thought that was the case as far as the USPA sees it.

You are absolutely right however they have no method of enforcement, but I seem to remember the USPA pulling instructor ratings of individuals for sketchy shit filmed while they were acting in the capacity of an instructor overseas, and not at group member dz.

Technically you're correct.


As with most other things out in the 'real world', there's how it should be done, how it could be done and how it IS done.

You don't 'need' a PRO rating to do any kind of a demo, it just makes the paperwork easier...same with a D license or for that matter ANY license, . . . hell if ya know the ropes, ya could easily pull off a 'surprise demo' like this without ever having jump training.

That's where responsible risk assessment comes it.

Can you accomplish the task successfully regarding risk to yourself and others...in other words, got skills?

Is the benefit to you and the others, enough so that it supersedes the 'cost' ...should you be unsuccessful.

Lots of variables there, and it's a sliding scale for every jump, especially 'demo' jumps.

Back in the days we jumped rocks for gear, I can't count the number of 'surprise demos' I did.
It was common place at my club, and yeah it's fun - challenging -exciting - and through more mature / educated eyes...pretty fucking stupid.

For years we closed out every DZ Saturday, with night jumps into the local bar parking lot. No licenses, insurance, paperwork...just 4 out on a pass over town.

Never had any problems, and we all were versed on the party line about not knowing the plane or pilot 'should' something happen.

First pitcher was always free... Was it fun yes, worth it considering what could have happened....probably not.

Would I do the same thing today? Yes, but...NOT FOR FREE BEER!

In the early 80's I worked outside of San Diego at an aerospace plant that just happened to be right across the street from a municipal airport.

I had a buddy running a helicopter flight school literally 200 feet from where my office was.

More than a few, are the times I'd rode the skid to 1500' stepped off and landed next to my car at lunchtime (2nd shift)

All good and fun, high 5's from co-workers etc.
~until the time the guy asking 'a lot of' questions identified himself as being with the FAA.

I actually knew more about what laws had been bent, and by whom...than he did.
Easy to bullshit a little and clam up as I got outta there...He tried to detain me but had no powers of arrest.
~~ never did it again because of what it would cost my buddy...just not worth the risk.

Should the OP, with 21 jumps be jumping a backyard demo?

Can be done, HAS been done...but the fact he mentions in his question that he 'has concerns', tells me he's not ready...he 'justifiably' questions his ability.

Only HE can answer whether the risk of injury, damaged gear, trouble with the locals etc...is really worth the 'reward' of having mom & dad say cool.

I did it over 30 years ago, into MY folks yard (tight) with a little over 100 jumps...wouldn't do it again today and I'm PRO rated with 1000+ demos...just not worth the risk.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[councilman24 36]

I caught it. Doesn't matter. Everything I said applies.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[aresye 0]

Well, I obviously have a lot of time to think about this. I have a contract for 6 years, and I'm only 2 years in. There are plenty of other times I can take leave and pull this off. As what was said, it all comes down to a risk assessment.

What risks are there to the jump?

1. Turbulence: The mountain/tree side will likely produce very dangerous turbulence if coming from the east-south. Any wind from those directions on the jump day will be an immediate abort.

2. Pilot/Other Jumpers: Most likely the biggest the demo would ever get would be a 4-way. I know a couple of friend's dads are pilots. If they think it is risky, or are uncertain, it will be a no go. If other jumpers feel uncomfortable, it will be a no go. As we say before every flight in a helo for the military, we'll fly at the lowest level of comfort, and the highest level of safety.

3. Air Traffic: Having lived in the area for a long time, I think maybe once I saw a small plane fly over where I live. The main airport is approx. 20mi away, and the local dropzone is approx. 20mi away, at a different airport. Air traffic should not be a very high concern, but just to be safe, an appropriate NOTAM should be made. There's little to no air traffic in the area the jump will take place.

4. Jump Run/Spotting: A winds aloft forecast will be taken prior to the jump, and the exit/opening points carefully calculated, and double checked. Spotting will be very important to make sure we are exactly where we need to be for the exit. A bad spot/changing winds will be a no go.

5. Updrafts: Happy Valley, which is where I live, is known to have thermal updrafts, due to the nature of the weather and location. These must also be taken into account, and the possible effects on the jump run, spot, and canopy flight.

6. Landing Patterns/Divert Areas: The target field is approx. 30-40 acres, so it is relatively large. The landing pattern, based on wind direction, shall be followed as to stay above the divert areas, and not over the woods.

7. Individual Skill Level: Every member that will participate in the jump must be an expert canopy pilot. I already consider myself a fairly good canopy pilot, but far from expert. Very far. In order to prepare, I must take canopy control courses that are offered, work on target accuracy, with different approaches, simulated emergencies, and different landings, including crosswind and downwind.

These are only a number of risks associated with the jump. The biggest risk of all, is an overestimation of my ability and skill. As of right now, many of you feel I am not ready to do this jump. I respect your input, which is the very reason why I posted this topic in the first place. I will be working on my safety, ability, and skill. Before I would attempt this jump, I will consult with my instructors here at Elsinore, my home DZ, and my local DZ. If the instructors think I have the ability to plan, coordinate, and pull off this jump, then I will once again take everything into account for a risk assessment, and plan accordingly. If any instructor believes that I will not be able to pull it off, or that I am not ready, I will respect their input, because that is why they are there, and plan the jump for another time, possibly even another year or two down the road.

Thank you everybody for your input. I understand I am not ready to do this jump. All I will be doing right now, is continue to enjoy this sport, and work on getting myself better every jump I go on.

That is one thing I love about this sport. You can ALWAYS improve.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[kjarv 0]

Sounds like you've got got a good head on your shoulders.

You mentioned you are in the military so that further complicates your situation. IF you hurt yourself skydiving (or any other sort of 'high risk' activity) it's likely there will be a "line of duty" determination after your done with your hospital visit.

The worst case scenario is if the line of duty determination does not come back in your favor, you will be responsible for all your medical bills, and if your injuries were serious enough to get you out of the military you'd lose all your benefits.

Also, if you 'burned in', your SGLI would NOT pay your beneficiaries if the line of duty determination didn't come back in your favor.

The line of duty determination is not usually a big deal, but they WILL ask things like
"are you licensed"
"were you current"
"did you exercise due care" etc. Remember that it is unlikely that the officers who get stuck with the line of duty determination will be skydivers and will probably go to USPA for help.

With regard to this particular jump given USPA's guidelines, you'd be hard pressed to prove that you exercised due care. Just something to consider in your risk analysis.

Stay safe!

-kjarv

[bozo 0]

7. Individual Skill Level: \
I already consider myself a fairly good canopy pilot,
----------------------------------------------------------

AT 21 JUMPS ????? hahahahaha Y
ou really havent a clue but you seem to be learning.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[aresye 0]

I consider myself a fairly good pilot for the number of jumps I have so far. I seemed to crash and burn a lot, earlier in my training, so I've learned from my mistakes, and I've stood up the past 10 landings I've had, even having downsized twice. Some of those jumps were with gusty winds, that frequently changed direction. I worked on my flat turns, low turn recovery, and techniques for staying on heading while flying through turbulence. A couple jumps I ended up having to change my landing pattern during final approach, due to inconsistent winds.

As I said in my post, I consider myself a pretty good canopy pilot, but I am in no way even near an intermediate or expert pilot. Maybe I should have said, I consider myself a fairly good pilot for the number of jumps that I have.

-----

Thanks for pointing out the military's SGLI, and the line of duty report. That is definitely something I overlooked, and I must take into consideration.

Being an aircrewman, they consider us very valuable, which is true, because they have spent an enormous amount of money in our training. For this reason, many commands have not allowed aircrewmen to participate in any extreme sports, such as scuba diving, skydiving, motocross, even mountain biking. My command I got pretty lucky with. I've talked to my Chief, and the way our command's policy works is, "As long as you wear the appropriate protective equipment, there's a low chance of you getting into trouble if you get hurt during the activity." Most of my command knows I skydive, which I was originally trying to keep on the down low, but they said I can continue to do it as long as I'm safe, and wear my parachute, lol.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[Foster 0]

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A couple jumps I ended up having to change my landing pattern during final approach, due to inconsistent winds.

This line speaks loads about your experience level.

If you are on final you can't change your pattern as you've already flown 2/3 of your pattern. You just changed direction.

If you've downsized already it wasn't really a downsize it was just getting you off a canopy that was way to big for you to begin with. Are you even loading your STUDENT canopy @ 1 to 1 yet? How many different dropzones have you landed at so far? If you have jumped at more than one DZ how did it feel the first time you jumped at a dropzone you hadn't landed at before? Multiply that feeling by a good 50x to understand what its like to have no idea what is happening on the ground where you are about to land.

[skypuppy 1]

I think most of us used to do these kinds of jumps regularly in old days (good way to get free beer and impress chicks) but back then we were using slow, relatively low performance chutes.

I guess what opened my eyes was an illegal demo done near my home about 10 years ago (I wasn't on it and didn't know about it till it hit the news.)

Seems some guys from another dz had decided to have a jump into an AA meeting one of them was hosting. One of the jumpers had about 100 jumps - probably a little less. The problem was he was on a relatively small canopy he'd just gotten not long before.

The landing area behind the house party was relatively large and open, but for whatever reason, this guy decided to land between the houses (to be closer to the crowd?). Whatever the reason, he ended up hooking into a mature tree. The tree won.

What REALLY pissed me off (like I said, this was all over the media) was his 'buddies' took off to avoid the cops as soon as they realized what had happened, even though this guy was still alive for awhile.

As far as I know the wall of silence prevailed and the ministry of transport never found out for sure who flew the plane or even where the jumpers had come from (or who they were), so nothing was ever done.

But it made a BIG impression in a lot of people's minds around home. People still remember it from time to time.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[aresye 0]

Small error in my pick for words. Yes, I meant change direction, not pattern.

I started off on a 260 F111, and that's when I made the majority of my slide in landings, and other crashes and burns. Went down to a 240 hybrid, and soon went to a 220 because I talked to my instructor, and he said it looks like I have good control with it. The 220 so far I've done my best on than any other canopy size. Every jump I've had a stand up, even on no wind days, days with shifting winds (due to thermals), and days with relatively high winds. Well, high for a student.

I already bought my own rig, with a Spectre 190 main. I'm going to ask my instructors this weekend if they think I should downsize to it, as it would be about a 1.1WL, on a 100% ZP canopy compared to a hybrid. I personally feel I'm ready for it, as I've had great landings on the 220 with a variety of circumstances, but in the end, the instructors have better judgement. This will be the same canopy I would do this demo jump on, for I've been working hard to get my self down to my own main's size, but not in any hurry to get to a high WL.

So far I've landed at only 2 DZs. This weekend I'm going to register myself at Skydive San Diego, so I can have a closer DZ to jump at during the week days.

Thanks for posting that skypuppy. What I see from the incident, is that the guy was using a canopy with a higher WL, without many jumps on it, and decided to initiate a high performance turn into a small area which was not the designated landing area. Could have been a miss, but it also could have been intentional. I'm sorry to hear about that incident, but it goes to show that you can't do too many new things at once.

As I've said earlier, and will say again, I am not going to attempt this jump until both I feel ready, and that an instructor feels I could do it.

I really didn't want the topic to get this far in depth, but it's good it did. The one thing I was really wondering about was the effects of turbulence from a mountain. As of right now I haven't gone into planning an actual jump, or planned any time to do it. Could be something I do a year away, perhaps 2 years. It could end up something I'll never do. I'm willing to accept either way, and am not going to push myself into doing this, or try to persuade myself I'm ready. I'm just leaving it up as a possibility in the future, based on the skill level and experience I have then, not now.

It'd be much better to surprise my parents by showing them my rig, and maybe showing them a pack job, than to land in a tree, hospital, or grave.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[airtwardo 6]

This weekend I'm going to register myself at Skydive San Diego,

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Make sure ya bring a logbook...Grrrr! (inside joke)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~