AFF1 Crash Landing

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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You are very quick to crucify other instructors (and/or the student) without having been there for the jump or talking with the instructors in question.

I've been a doctor and skydiving instructor long enough to know that people seldom recall things accurately when they are trying to absorb a whole lot of information in a comparitively short time. More than once I've heard butchered accounts of what was actually said/done... not because the person intends to be misleading, but that's honestly how they recall it. That's just how the brain can work sometimes, especially when clouded by adrenaline and pain/embarrassment.

I've seen instructors spend 2 hours with a student in a debrief only to have the student come back the next day and tell me that the instructor didn't debrief them much... even though I was on the DZ and saw it happen.

Someday it will be you in the other instructors' shoes... some student will warp something that you said/did in training, it happens to all of us. And you'll have a student that honestly believes their account is accurate.

That is very true. I have done my best to remember everything that was said but keep falling short. I do remember that one of my instructors talked to me for only a few seconds. I handed him my license progression card and he just looked at it and handed it back to me. I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot by saying what I remember and it not being right. I was on a big adrenaline rush and was hurting from the landing and more than a little embarrased by having so many ppl see it.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[peregrinerose 0]

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That is very true. I have done my best to remember everything that was said but keep falling short. I do remember that one of my instructors talked to me for only a few seconds. I handed him my license progression card and he just looked at it and handed it back to me. I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot by saying what I remember and it not being right. I was on a big adrenaline rush and was hurting from the landing and more than a little embarrased by having so many ppl see it.

You aren't shooting yourself in the foot

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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***Get used to the embarrassment... it will keep happening for hundreds of skydives (trust me, I still screw up occasionally too.

Yeah I'm sure the ground will be there to break my fall when I mess up next time

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[wrightskyguy 1]

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You are very quick to crucify other instructors (and/or the student) without having been there for the jump or talking with the instructors in question.


*** Did you even read my reply? Go back and read it slowly. I said that "if" what he said was accurate then he needed to jump with someone else. I was pretty careful with my wording. Actually, I just reread it myself and it seems pretty easy to comprehend. I've been doing this for a long time and I've been paired with instructors that had no business being there, but never anyone as bad as the OP describes. Now, I'm not a doctor, but I do understand selective memory, and I doubt the instruction he recieved was as poor as he describes, but I'm not just going to assume he's full of shit because he's a student. He may have gotten world class instruction, but the bottom line is that he does'nt seem to have learned what he should have.
Something's broken.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[NickDG 23]

Josh,

I just read about the tandem jump you did in Chambersburg which you posted here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3274853;page=unread#unread

That tandem went fine and you landed happy. Maybe there is just something about the DZ in San Diego and you that isn't clicking. It doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong, it just happens sometimes.

You mentioned wanting to retake the FJC, even if you had to pay for it. So why not make a clean break of it and travel the 2 hours north to either the DZ in Lake Elsinore or Perris Valley. It's very possible either place may let you sit their FJC at a reduced rate, or maybe even gratis, if you explain what's going on with you.

At first I thought your re-taking the FJC was kind of silly, but the fact you remember so little about everything is scaring me a little bit. I took my FJC almost 34 years ago and I remember almost every word of it. And I remember exactly how my first jump went like it was yesterday.

You don't yet realize how fortunate you are to have two world class DZs within easy driving range. Go take advantage of it . . .

NickD

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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Josh,

I just read about the tandem jump you did in Chambersburg which you posted here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3274853;page=unread#unread

That tandem went fine and you landed happy. Maybe there is just something about the DZ in San Diego and you that isn't clicking. It doesn't mean anyone is doing anything wrong, it just happens sometimes.

You mentioned wanting to retake the FJC, even if you had to pay for it. So why not make a clean break of it and travel the 2 hours north to either the DZ in Lake Elsinore or Perris Valley. It's very possible either place may let you sit their FJC at a reduced rate, or maybe even gratis, if you explain what's going on with you.

At first I thought your re-taking the FJC was kind of silly, but the fact you remember so little about everything is scaring me a little bit. I took my FJC almost 34 years ago and I remember almost every word of it. And I remember exactly how my first jump went like it was yesterday.

You don't yet realize how fortunate you are to have two world class DZs within easy driving range. Go take advantage of it . . .

NickD

I remember all of the class. its just after the jump that I cant remember

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[chrismgtis 0]

My opinion... instructors can tell you that you suck "nicely" and get the point across just fine. They don't necessarily have to say "man you suck at this"... That just isn't the right skydiver's attitude. Why does he or she suck and how can he or she fix it. That's better.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[bjjman 0]

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Do you have any background in education at all?

I have no background in education. However, I have been involved in sports my whole life and I have coached. I have been a great athlete (which I believe is 1 part natural talent, and 1 part being coachable) and a great coach. I know I'm a great coach because I have taken people that others have thought of as bench-warmers and made all-stars out of them (not by chance, but by teaching technique).

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The 'good' comments coupled with points to work on for the next jump are basic educational techniques

Sounds like a great technique; I never said otherwise. HOWEVER, what set me off was this from your post: I go through every part of the skydive and [write] 'good' before everything that was done reasonably well. I don't care if Vince Lombardi told me that, I would tell him he was wrong. (But I would bet my life he wouldn't tell a player he was "good" unless he was.)

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Mindset truly does matter.

No doubt.

Maybe I misconstrued my opinion or maybe you read into my post too much, but I agree with most everything you're saying. I am not saying to be harsh on students, I am only saying don't be overly easy either. Be fair. It's a disservice to the student if you exaggerate how well they do something. And that has the potential for disastrous effects in the sky. By the way, I am a student so I'm necessarily right. I'm telling you what we want. If somebody is too sensitive for some constructive criticism, then they don't belong in a sport where they are a danger to others.

My example for you: On my 1st jump (talk about memory being different from what's on tape!) I forgot my PPs, was told to straighten my legs, didn't have my arms arched up enough, was reminded to check alt. around 6000', and then lost altitude awareness and pulled early (saw a 5 and couldn't tell if I was at 4500' or 5500').

I was given great constructive criticism on the ground as I was told what went well, bust most time was spent on what I needed to work on, as it should be. It boiled down to relax/take my time. However, once I saw my log book, excited to see what I needed to improve on, all I saw was "good, good, good." Not much help.

Now that I've gotten this far, I realize maybe I'm being too harsh on my instructors. But that can only be true if most people do far worse than me on their jumps actually making me good compared to what they usually see.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[peregrinerose 0]

I think I know where we're talking past each other then... "Good" does not mean "Perfect". Say the student does 3PP, maybe misses the first one and I guide the hand for that one, but the student gets the next two without help. It wasn't flawless, but it was good, and 'good' is what I would write in the log book. Does the student learn anything from me nit picking about a slightly off first touch when the remaining 2 were fine? No... that's the whole point of a practice pull.

To me 'good' means that the skill at hand was done reasonably well, not necessarily perfectly, but well enough to be safe, for the instructors to know what's going on, and for it to be acceptable even if done the exact same way on the next skydive. It might be something worked on with later jumps, but I'm not going to harp missing a practice touch, for example, when the student de-arched the entire skydive.... there are priorities. Fix the big problems first, fine tune later.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

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It might be something worked on with later jumps

And during those later jumps your coaches/instructors will become more demanding as your skill improves, or so I've found. As a new student you have to deal with a whole lot of things unlike anything you experienced before - cut yourself some slack!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[TheCapt 7]

Right on! My very first jump became a reserve ride with a crosswind landing more than a mile from the DZ. One of the things my instructor wrote in my log book was, "Good choice of offield landing area." That made me feel good enough to immediately jump again and get my license.

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

Hey guys I just got back from spending the day at Skydive San Diego. I got to talk to a lot of the jumpers areound and asked some questions. Got to see lots of firts jumps. It was a great day. I'm sun burned to hell and gone but I'll live. I didn't get a chance to jump but will be going back real soon to do my next AFF.

I also got my logbook that I left behind last week. Here is what they wrote.

Look at Altimeter
Good Arch
Good to go to Levle 2.

And under Remarks there is only one word.
Altimeter


Somehow I thought there would be more in a first jump log.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[wrightskyguy 1]

Sounds like your inst had some back to back stuff going on and did'nt take the time to properly debrief or log your jump, inexcusable. Good luck with your future jumps.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[chrismgtis 0]

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Sounds like your inst had some back to back stuff going on and did'nt take the time to properly debrief or log your jump, inexcusable. Good luck with your future jumps.

The coaches are rushed at times. Sometimes you will need to wait until they get down from their next jump and have a little more time to debrief.

If it's due to that I'd excuse it. I doubt the guy was just trying to be lazy. If he feels differently he needs to ask for some deeper critique or talk to the DZM.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[lowpull 0]

these are NOT coaches we are talking about.

There was a time being an AFF I meant doing the best job to teach a student, not slide by with the least effort required.


I guess those days are no longer.

[chrismgtis 0]

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these are NOT coaches we are talking about.

There was a time being an AFF I meant doing the best job to teach a student, not slide by with the least effort required.


I guess those days are no longer.

Yea you're right. I meant to say instructors.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[wrightskyguy 1]

The logbook is not just for the student, it's for his next instructor as well, and this entry provided little useful information.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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The logbook is not just for the student, it's for his next instructor as well, and this entry provided little useful information.

Yeah I didn't like that log entry my self. I have my own log book and I went more into it than he did. I plan to go back next weekend and get at least 2 jumps in (Depending if that new credit card arrives ) And I'm not going to leave until I get to sit down with the instructor and talk about each jump.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[tetra316 0]

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The logbook is not just for the student, it's for his next instructor as well, and this entry provided little useful information.

Yeah I didn't like that log entry my self. I have my own log book and I went more into it than he did. I plan to go back next weekend and get at least 2 jumps in (Depending if that new credit card arrives ) And I'm not going to leave until I get to sit down with the instructor and talk about each jump.

Most dropzones keep a separate log book on each student that only the instructors see. Sounds like the case here.

[lowpull 0]

I have worked at several dropzones over the years,(as well as traveled to many to run tandem courses, and I have NEVER seen the dz keep a master log.

Never even heard of such actually.

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Most dropzones keep a separate log book on each student that only the instructors see. Sounds like the case here.

*** If by "most dropzones" you mean the one where you jump, then I think that's a possibility. I know of a DZ that holds a student's logbook (mostly to keep them from jumping elsewhere) but I've never even heard of a place that keeps a seperate one.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[danielcroft 2]

My DZ has students keep a separate copy of their student jumps in a log that's stored at the DZ. They encourage you to fill that out. It's not something kept by the instructors though & is just a copy of the student's log entries.

[peregrinerose 0]

I've been on staff at 2 DZs, both keep a master log that's kept in a filing cabinet, plus the students have their own log books. I typically write the same thing in both. I don't know if "most DZs" do this or not, but the two I'm at as well as a couple of others that I've called to confirm student experience (lost log books) do this as well... it definitely isn't an uncommon practice.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[NickDG 23]

Not every DZ does it. But it's a good idea at larger drop zones where there's a big staff and not everybody is there everyday. I started a system like that when I was the chief Instructor at Elsinore. And Perris did it too, at least when I was working there.

Sometimes if the last Instructor is present it's a simple matter of getting their attention while doing something else, and just nodding over at the student. The other Instructor then either gives you a thumbs up, or a discreet raised eyebrow.

If the last Instructor isn't there you can go pull the student's paper work and find a smiley face or whatever the issue is, like scared shitless of the airplane ride, can't breath in free fall, or watch out - total meat bomb! And that's better than trying to read between the lines in someone's logbook.

And okay, there's a bunch of you saying brutal honestly is the best course. But I've lived both methods and know better. I started jumping in a military club and you either hacked it or packed it. There was absolutely no babying anybody. But in the club nobody cared if you became a jumper or not. It was up to you to rise to their level and not the other way around.

But in civilian jumping, these people are hiring me with good money to teach them to skydive. It's like the math teacher I had in high school. He came right out and said I had no head for numbers and I was just wasting his time. On the other hand I had an English teacher who found something great in every paper I turned in. So now if you ask me the difference between the pilot's altimeter and the ones we're wearing I need a frigging pad and pencil to figure it out. But I can read and I can write along with anybody.

So guess what kind of Skydiving Instructor I am?

NickD

[tetra316 0]

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Most dropzones keep a separate log book on each student that only the instructors see. Sounds like the case here.

*** If by "most dropzones" you mean the one where you jump, then I think that's a possibility. I know of a DZ that holds a student's logbook (mostly to keep them from jumping elsewhere) but I've never even heard of a place that keeps a seperate one.

Yes SDO does it. They don't hold a students log, they keep a separate one at the the dz that instructors see. That way if the student ends up with another instructor there is that communication from one instructor to the next in case both are not present that day. The student's don't see the dz's log. I've also heard that Perris and Elsinore do the same. A couple people on here have also mentioned their dz do this as well.

I really meant some instead of most. While I shouldn't have said most do it it's definitely not uncommon from what I've heard.

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