dorbie 0 #26 March 21, 2005 Quote Just getting you to admit that you are, in fact device dependent. You depend on a harness, container, deployment system, cutaway system, and canopies, all of which devices have, in the past, failed with fatal results. Yet you pick on some devices as somehow less worthy than others. As you should know that's the difference between a critical and non critical point of failure. You should never intentionally make an AAD a critical piece of equipment is all that's being said, although should it be needed it becomes one. I think you are intimately familiar with this concept. The message seems a bit inane, I know of nobody who intends to have an AAD fire on them. Everyone seems to agree that you never rely on this and you skydive as if it isn't there. I find posts that mention a creeping reliance on audibles valuable and it is good to be warned that altitude awareness is not just about making sure your altimeter needle is above your pull altitude number on a plastic dial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #27 March 21, 2005 QuoteAny piece of equipment can and will fail, and that includes parachutes and harnesses as well. And if you trust reserves and harnesses 100% than that's not being honest with yourself either. Like I already said, reserves and harness can and have failed. QuoteI think the issue is that it comes across as "trust your reserve and harness 100%" and "trust everything else 0%" when in actuality the whole thing is a big muddy scale of gray between the two. Not what I am saying at all. Did you read about the skydiver that had been saved by her Cypres once before that had trouble pulling, so she concetrated on keeping stable and waited for her Cypres to fire? That is what I am talking about. Some jumpers do not treat back up devices as back up devices. QuoteEducating people on their gear and educating them on making the right choices of when to and when not to jump will help more than telling a newbie that they should be willing to do a jump without a cypress or altimeter. It is a way of looking at how to make a decision. Do you factor in your seat belt or airbag when you decide how to drive? I hope not. Same thing for AAD's, altimeters, etc. Drive like you don't have them and skydive like you don't have them. I don't know anyone that drives faster because they have an airbag, but I do know skydivers that make riskier jumps because they have a Cypres. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 March 21, 2005 QuoteThe message seems a bit inane, I know of nobody who intends to have an AAD fire on them. Everyone seems to agree that you never rely on this and you skydive as if it isn't there. How many people have lost altitude awareness because their altimeter didn't work? I know of a bunch. You ought to see that tandem video. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #29 March 21, 2005 Actually - I've heard the comment, "its ok, i have a cypress" at least a dozen times in my 11 years in the sport. That is complacency (sp). From a logical standpoint Kallend, you may have something going - but your logic is based in the theoretical world - this isn't theoretical physics - it is life, and death for that matter. All hook was trying to say was learn to use your senses to improve your odds of making another jump - i see no flaw in that - in fact, all students should be pounded with this piece of information. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #30 March 21, 2005 QuoteActually - I've heard the comment, "its ok, i have a cypress" at least a dozen times in my 11 years in the sport. That is complacency (sp). From a logical standpoint Kallend, you may have something going - but your logic is based in the theoretical world - this isn't theoretical physics - it is life, and death for that matter. All hook was trying to say was learn to use your senses to improve your odds of making another jump - i see no flaw in that - in fact, all students should be pounded with this piece of information. This was a friend of mine. I don't want it to happen to anyone else who thinks they have any reason not to use their AAD. 5/18/2002 Skydive Chicago, IL FFCOL 28 700 Y/N Description: This experienced jumper, on the instructional staff , went on a 2-way freefly with a low time (~35 jumps in 3 seasons) jumper. They went out launching a two way head down. The best understanding is that the deceased dove hard on the other (low inexperienced) jumper after their two way launch was released. The low time jumper did not stay stable in the head down position and transitioned to a sit. At that time, the deceased struck the foot of the low time jumper and was knocked unconcious. He fell unstable until impact. No handles were pulled. The CYPRES installed did not fire. The low time jumper was not able to reach the deceased in air before he had to save his own life and deploy his main. The CYPRES appears to have been off for this jump. Lessons:The speed differences possible (50 mph is easy) between freefliers accentuate the need for a (functioning) automatic deployment device. Had the device been on and functional, you wouldn't be reading this. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amir1967 0 #31 March 21, 2005 Nicely said one more thing over the cypres especially now when the days get longer. about 2 years ago I went jumping at around 9:00 am the night before I was on the sunset load so that morning when I put the rig on the cypres was on so far so good, when I´ve went on the second jump of the day my cypres was out , it was on for the first jump (or at least when I looked at it) but in the time till boarding call that was the 12 hr cycle from the last jump the night before so for that jump it was out. just thoght maybe newer jumper can learn something from it amir Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 March 21, 2005 QuoteThis was a friend of mine. I don't want it to happen to anyone else who thinks they have any reason not to use their AAD. NO ONE SAID DO NOT USE AN AAD! Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #33 March 21, 2005 And Roger was a friend of mine. We have all had friends go in John and you know this. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #34 March 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe message seems a bit inane, I know of nobody who intends to have an AAD fire on them. Everyone seems to agree that you never rely on this and you skydive as if it isn't there. How many people have lost altitude awareness because their altimeter didn't work? I know of a bunch. You ought to see that tandem video. Derek You're being pretty selective with my post AND taking a part where I said AAD and applying your comment about altimeters. Did you even bother to read the text immeaditely after the part you quoted? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #35 March 21, 2005 Was the deceased wearing a helmet? A helmet is a great backup device that is a no brainer - no pun intended - to use. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #36 March 21, 2005 QuoteYou're being pretty selective with my post AND taking a part where I said AAD and applying your comment about altimeters. Did you even bother to read the text immeaditely after the part you quoted? Yes, I should have clarified it better. My point is nobody intends to lose altitude awareness or expects their altimeter to quit on them. When it does, if they are not ready and using their eyes for altitude first and their altimeter as a back up, they could lose altitude awareness. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #37 March 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteThis was a friend of mine. I don't want it to happen to anyone else who thinks they have any reason not to use their AAD. NO ONE SAID DO NOT USE AN AAD! Derek There's a strong suggestion in telling people not to make jumps they wouldn't make without one. How does anyone know unless they are willing to try it? Otherwise they might just be fooling themselves. You may not think you have discouraged use, but you don't know how others may interpret what you wrote.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbain 0 #38 March 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteAny piece of equipment can and will fail, and that includes parachutes and harnesses as well. And if you trust reserves and harnesses 100% than that's not being honest with yourself either. Like I already said, reserves and harness can and have failed. QuoteI think the issue is that it comes across as "trust your reserve and harness 100%" and "trust everything else 0%" when in actuality the whole thing is a big muddy scale of gray between the two. Not what I am saying at all. Did you read about the skydiver that had been saved by her Cypres once before that had trouble pulling, so she concetrated on keeping stable and waited for her Cypres to fire? That is what I am talking about. Some jumpers do not treat back up devices as back up devices. QuoteEducating people on their gear and educating them on making the right choices of when to and when not to jump will help more than telling a newbie that they should be willing to do a jump without a cypress or altimeter. It is a way of looking at how to make a decision. Do you factor in your seat belt or airbag when you decide how to drive? I hope not. Same thing for AAD's, altimeters, etc. Drive like you don't have them and skydive like you don't have them. I don't know anyone that drives faster because they have an airbag, but I do know skydivers that make riskier jumps because they have a Cypres. Derek No, I don't change how drive because I don't have airbags. But if I could afford a new car I'd sure have them! Not because it changes my actions but because the other day when that car pulled out in front of me I realized how much "messier" I would be, if I hadn't been able to stop or react in time. Airbags have saved lives whether you depend on them or not. So, no I don't change how I skydive because I do or don't have a cypres. But if I can afford one I'll jump with it turned on just in case that "other person" decides to do something stupid, like they do driving. Christina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #39 March 21, 2005 QuoteThere's a strong suggestion in telling people not to make jumps they wouldn't make without one. No, there isn't. The suggestion is do not accept a risk level because you have a Cypres that you wouldn't accept without a Cypres. Having an AAD in your rig is good. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #40 March 21, 2005 QuoteNo, I don't change how drive because I don't have airbags. But if I could afford a new car I'd sure have them! Not because it changes my actions but because the other day when that car pulled out in front of me I realized how much "messier" I would be, if I hadn't been able to stop or react in time. Airbags have saved lives whether you depend on them or not. So, no I don't change how I skydive because I do or don't have a cypres. But if I can afford one I'll jump with it turned on just in case that "other person" decides to do something stupid, like they do driving. Good, but not everyone thinks the same way you do. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #41 March 21, 2005 >There's a strong suggestion in telling people not to make jumps they >wouldn't make without one. If a jumper backs off a dangerous jump, he is much better off than a jumper that goes on a dangerous jump because he has a cypres. >How does anyone know unless they are willing to try it? They can if they want. Once they graduate, jumpers are considered skydiving 'adults,' able to make their own decisions on what sort of gear they consider too risky or safe enough. AAD's are a boon to safety PROVIDED they are not used to allow jumpers to go on jumps that would otherwise be too dangerous for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #42 March 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere's a strong suggestion in telling people not to make jumps they wouldn't make without one. No, there isn't. The suggestion is do not accept a risk level because you have a Cypres that you wouldn't accept without a Cypres. Having an AAD in your rig is good. Derek But there is less risk with an AAD, that's why I choose to jump with one. That's why having an AAD in your rig is good. By jumping with an AAD I accept less risk on every jump I make, it's a very deliberate choice. I choose to jump like it wasn't there because that removes a reliance on a possible point of failure (either human, electronic or mechanical) that would undermine the benefit of having the device. Let's say it halves my risk on a skydive (for the sake of argument, if you look at the historical record that's not unreasonable although the surge in swooping/low turn incidents confuses that), remove that device and it doubles the danger to me, I might choose not to jump and that would be a personal choice, it has nothing to do with how I jump with the knowledge of an AAD. I'm not complacent enough to think I'm different from many others with far more experience who've gone in with no AAD. The two issues are separate, how much risk I'm prepared to accept on a skydive is not tied directly to my refusal to rely 100% on an emergency piece of equipment for use as the ultimate contingency. I don't rely on my AAD for the same reason that I insist on jumping with one, I think it's safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #43 March 21, 2005 QuoteI don't rely on my AAD for the same reason that I insist on jumping with one, I think it's safer. Good and I agree with you. Some people skydive as if they do have a Cypres though. I do think that if someone won't jump if they don't have a Cypres must realize that it may not work. It can increase your safety, but it may not. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #44 March 21, 2005 Quote Once they graduate, jumpers are considered skydiving 'adults,' able to make their own decisions on what sort of gear they consider too risky or safe enough. lets hope it stays that way ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #45 March 21, 2005 >>That's simple. I see many of the answers here from Derek, Bill, etc. as discouraging the use of an AAD and other hi-tech devices. That is, IMO, seriously wrong. << I think you misinterpret their posts. They are not discouraging use of additional devices. They are discouraging people from allowing the presence of those additional devices to change their aversion to the risk associated with an individual jump. Their posts rise from an observation that they have made, which I have made as well, and which you either have made or will make soon, of skydivers with absolutely crumb-dumb dive plans telling themselves (and others) that their crumb-dumb dive plan is OK because they have a Cypres. Your skill as a debater is recognized here. I think that your posts rise more from your aversion to the weakness in some of the syllogisms in this thread than your actual disagreement with the bulk of the stated conclusions. But I may mischaracterize your position. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #46 March 21, 2005 Here's a graph I posted about 4 years ago on rec.skydiving during a similar "discussion". The naysayers lamented the increase inthe number of CYPRES saves and how it indicated device dependency and bad attitude among new skydivers. Oh dear! I, on the other hand, looked at the bottom line, which is that the number of fatalities due to no and low pulls declined dramatically, with a remarkable (inverse) correlation to the saves. To be quite honest, I don't much care if skydivers become dependent or not, as long as the bottom line is that they live longer.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #47 March 22, 2005 QuoteTo be quite honest, I don't much care if skydivers become dependent or not, as long as the bottom line is that they live longer. Are you saying you'd be OK with a jumper that cutaway and let theor RSL or AAD activate their reserve for them or just didn't pull at all and let their AAD fire and save them? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #48 March 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteTo be quite honest, I don't much care if skydivers become dependent or not, as long as the bottom line is that they live longer. Are you saying you'd be OK with a jumper that cutaway and let theor RSL or AAD activate their reserve for them or just didn't pull at all and let their AAD fire and save them? Derek I'm not aware of any instructors teaching their students to passively wait for the AAD to fire. That is a straw-man argument. No, I said I don't much care if skydivers become dependent or not, as long as the bottom line is that they live longer. All the evidence (and there is plenty) shows that no/low-pull deaths are way down over the last 15 years. That is fine by me, however achieved. Even hinting that someone should make a jump without an AAD just to show that they are willing to do that is, IMO, irresponsible. The evidence that AADS save lives is far stronger than the evidence presented to show that low time jumpers under high W/L canopies are the primary victims of landing accidents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #49 March 22, 2005 QuoteEven hinting that someone should make a jump without an AAD just to show that they are willing to do that is, IMO, irresponsible. Who did that? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #50 March 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteEven hinting that someone should make a jump without an AAD just to show that they are willing to do that is, IMO, irresponsible. Who did that? Derek Anyone who says you shouldn't make a jump with a CYPRES that you wouldn't make without one. This is not much different than saying you shouldn't downsize without doing this or that to prove that you can. It is more than a hint, it's a challenge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
