Alt. Awareness during snivel/mal

[napalmboy 0]

Something that Jan Meyer said here made me think about my own opening habits and whether I should change them. (Yes, yes, I'll be asking my instructors, but I'm interested to see what everybody here does.)

Right after pulling, how do you maintain altitude awareness? I've been taught to just count after a pull and look up over my shoulder, in part to be able to look at the parachute and in part to help clear the burble. During AFF, I was told that if the canopy isn't open after counting to five or so, chop it and go for silver. But I've had more than one six- or seven-second snivel on a very old Sabre 190 and a seven second opening on a new-ish (200 jumps) Safire 189. They both opened fine and were landable.

What really promts me to ask is that the more I think about this, the more I realize that while I know how long these caopies took to open in time, I have absolutely no idea how much alititude I dropped. These days I'm pulling up at 4k to 5k, so I'm not really worried about hitting the ground at this point, but I understand not being altitude aware during snivels (which are potential malfunctions, if they never decide to open) isn't going to work as I start pulling lower. And while looking at the canopy deploying leads directly into checking if it's okay, it doesn't help if I were to pass through my hard deck just watching it.

At the very least, I've decided that I need to get into the habit of looking over my left shoulder rather than my right, so I can watch my altimeter during deployment. Is there something else I specifically need to practice? Do you guys count after pulling, or do you watch your altitude? Or do you just glance back and forth between them?

Safety Day at the DZ I'm going to these days is Saturday, so I'll bring it up then. But I've learned a lot from reading thoughts of people older and wiser, so bring on the knowledge.

Well, the door was open...

[airdvr 200]

Let me preface this by saying I am in no way qualified to give you advice other than my own experience. OK..now that I've given the disclaimer...when I dump it has always been my habit to sit up. Just a habit designed to ensure airflow to my PC. I never get vertical before the opening forces put me in that position.

My first point of reference when I am watching my canopy inflate is the slider. I figure if I can see all 4 grommets it's probably going to come down the lines and at least I'll have something inflated. As far as counting...I hear what you're saying. I'm old school and not used to the slower opening sequence of today's ZP canopies. I've ridden some snivellers alot longer than I was comfortable with. But I also know my brain makes it seem longer than it really is. If you're habit of giving it a 5 count works for you then good. But remember that 5 seconds is only 1000 feet, and if you're dumping at 3 grand you've still got time. That's why I said to look at the slider. I think its very difficult to get a canopy out of the D-bag and not have at least something wanting to inflate. And it should be pretty obvious if its going to be trash.

Don't know if that helps or not.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Travman 6]

You have to be careful with long snivels. Something my instructor talked to me about was counting while its opening.
We are taught "One thousand, two thousand, 3 thousand, check (look over shoulder"
Now say it starts opening constantly at 4 thousand, 4 becomes your new three. Then the openings get slower and it constantly opens at 5 thousand, now 5 is your new 3... where do you draw the line?

[billvon 2,436]

>During AFF, I was told that if the canopy isn't open after counting to five or so, chop it and go for silver.

That's still what I do, and I don't jump canopies (other than tandem canopies) that take longer than five seconds to open. Since I often do bigways where we have to track to 2200 feet, I can't afford a 1000 foot snivel anyway.

On tandems I pull, wait until I get stood up, grab the risers, and then watch both the canopy and my (wrist mount) altimeter. (I also look around every few seconds to see if I'm sniveling past someone.) It's hard to count on a tandem because tandem speeds are so different than regular speeds and the canopy can take _much_ longer to open. True of the reserve as well BTW.

[napalmboy 0]

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And it should be pretty obvious if its going to be trash.

Heh; statements like that worry me. If I went completely by the book to say that I should chop anything that wasn't inflated by "five," then I'd have (at least) three reserve rides at 38 jumps. And each of those times, as I reached "five" and began to think, "Crap, I'm going to have to cut this" the canopy inflated by the time I was arching in preparation for emergency procedures.

I guess it comes down to things being fuzzy; these particular jumps had a canopy that snivelled for slightly longer than I'd been told canopies should open in, and they all opened correctly within two seconds of that tolerance. Part of this could be a memory problem; I honestly couldn't tell you if my count that got up to "seven" was just opening at "seven" or if it was already partially inflated at "seven." This is something for me to look out for next time.

Follow-up question, then; if "five" is the upper limit for a count, do you want a landable canopy at "five," or is one that's just starting to open good for you? (Anticipated answer: Don't go through your hard deck without a landable canopy.)

Well, the door was open...

[dorbie 0]

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And it should be pretty obvious if its going to be trash.

Heh; statements like that worry me. If I went completely by the book to say that I should chop anything that wasn't inflated by "five," then I'd have (at least) three reserve rides at 38 jumps. And each of those times, as I reached "five" and began to think, "Crap, I'm going to have to cut this" the canopy inflated by the time I was arching in preparation for emergency procedures.

I guess it comes down to things being fuzzy; these particular jumps had a canopy that snivelled for slightly longer than I'd been told canopies should open in, and they all opened correctly within two seconds of that tolerance. Part of this could be a memory problem; I honestly couldn't tell you if my count that got up to "seven" was just opening at "seven" or if it was already partially inflated at "seven." This is something for me to look out for next time.

Follow-up question, then; if "five" is the upper limit for a count, do you want a landable canopy at "five," or is one that's just starting to open good for you? (Anticipated answer: Don't go through your hard deck without a landable canopy.)

I think you've answered your own question. A couple more seconds and you had a good canopy. Some canopies snivel for a long time, mine does and I like it, I never plan to pull at anywhere near 2k, in fact I'm not allowed technically speaking. I've ridden hop & pop loads down when other jumpers were getting out at 2k and that suits me just fine. You don't want to be chopping a good canopy but you don't want to be waiting until you're increasing your risk by not chopping.

You're allowed to look at your canopy as it deploys, if you get in the habit of this you'll start to recognize that it's openning normally.

Those jumps when you waited a second or two past your count and wound up with a good canopy are what you call experience. Learn from it but don't take the wrong lesson, i.e. don't wait too long.

[AFFI 0]

Streamer: High speed partial malfunction.
When your parachute comes out of the deployment bag it looks a lot like a streamer malfunction and can be very deceptive because it looks like the beginning of a typical opening, but it is stuck. The slider is stuck high on the suspension lines, not allowing the parachute to inflate fully with air. This is a high speed situation, it’s important to recognize promptly and take corrective action.
•Right when you throw your pilot chute, start counting:
One Thousand, Two Thousand, Three Thousand, Four Thousand, Five Thousand – Six.
You should definitely have a recognizable parachute over your head by the time the word “Six” comes out of your mouth (recognizable dosent mean fully inflated, remain altitude aware).
•If you have a Streamer malfunction - Initiate emergency procedures for a partial malfunction promptly as this is a high speed situation – Cutaway & Deploy Reserve.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[RedassSkychic 0]

as far as keeping altitude aware while you're watching your canopy open.. I always put my hands on my risers ready to fly my canopy as it opens in case it starts to go into line twists or wants to dive or someone is flying right at me all of a sudden and I need to make an avoidance turn. anyway, with my hands up there my altimeter is easy to see, and i can keep an eye on the other canopies around me at the same time. works pretty well for me, anyway.

[RedassSkychic 0]

nevermind, i guess you were talking about a streamer before you're sat up; my advice doesnt really apply there.

[napalmboy 0]

Okay, so it sounds like the consensus is that the canopy should be starting to inflate by "six." This doesn't mean completely inflated, but it definitely means no longer sniveling (as that would make it a streamer).

If I pulled on time and know what altitude I pulled at, the most I've fallen during that count to six is about 1,000, and if the canopy is starting to inflate at that point, things have slowed down considerably (although this is where I need to consciously keep altitude awareness, especially if it's opening into a different malfunction).

This weekend I'll work on watching to find out exactly how far I'm falling during these snivels, and I'll talk to an instructor to see what he thinks about it all. Thanks for the advice, everybody.

Well, the door was open...

[Orange1 0]

newbie question - when do you realise that what you think is a sniveller is actually a streamer?
We've been taught - if there is a problem and it is not improving within 5 seconds, chop

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Kris 0]

Good question.

Look for all 4 corners of the slider and make sure you can see roughly 4 corners to the canopy. Even when my canopy snivels I can see that slider quite easily. It helps if your have a contrasting slider color though. If you can see those, it's probably not a streamer.

However, if it snivels for more than 5-6 seconds, it's probably not going to open. It could be a tension knot, slider hangup....just don't mess with it past your hard deck.

A good frame of mind to keep yourself in is that your hard deck is sacred. If you don't have a landable canopy over your head by that altitude then it's time to get one.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™