larskjargaard 0 #1 July 8, 2009 can anyone offer some advice as to what would be a quality tracking dive briefing for small or large groups, novices, ect. Any other tips would also be very helpful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blink 0 #2 July 8, 2009 Proximity and efficient track (minimal vertical speed, maximizing horizontal speed) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Morrison79 0 #3 July 8, 2009 How about checking on your other post with the same subject http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3612513;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #4 July 9, 2009 QuoteProximity and efficient track (minimal vertical speed, maximizing horizontal speed) Proximity is good, efficiency not so much. Like any freefall situation, each individual, based on experince, height, weight, and body type, will have a different range of speeds and abilities. If the base of the tracking dive is performing a high efficiency track, there is a good possibility that some of the people on the dive will not be able to keep up. For a group tracking dive, the best track will be of a moderate forward speed, and a moderate glide angle. This will allow the largest number of people to have the most amount of manuverability in relation to the base. This is what allows people to get into the dive, and 'fly' in relation to the base. Tracking jumps where the base is trying for a max track are just a drag race. While this can be fun, it only works when everyone on the dive is of similar ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohanW 0 #5 July 9, 2009 Quote can anyone offer some advice as to what would be a quality tracking dive briefing for small or large groups, novices, ect. Any other tips would also be very helpful. you want to cover the spot, the exit, the "formation" even if not slot-specific, flight plan (direction, distance, "efficiency"), break-off procedures (key, altitude, direction), opening altitude. for novices, you may need to go into more detail, and also talk a little about tracking itself - body position, steering, navigating. no briefing is complete without a mention of what to do when all goes to hell. and always ask for questions. (if it's a bigway with a debrief, decide if you're packing first debriefing later, or the other way around.) wingsuit or atmonauti organisers may have insights - the disciplines are similar.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hchunter614 0 #6 July 9, 2009 On the tracking dive I was on that Dave led I was was really worried about being able to keep up with the formation but he did a great job of keeping the dive in a range so that everyone could stay together. But towards the end of the dive when we needed separation for deployment he took off like he had afterburners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #7 July 9, 2009 Quotewhat would be a quality tracking dive briefing for small or large groups Start with the climbout/exit order. On tracking dives, the hardest exit slots are actually the floaters, as they have to exit and be tracking and on level right from the start. The early divers have the best slots as they come out close to the base, but above, which gives you an advantage. You can trade that height for speed and get right in there. Try to keep more expereinced guys as the late divers. It's actaully an easy slot, but the newbies will sometimes 'over do' it when trying to get there, and end up dive bombing the entire formation in the process. As far as the flight plan goes, avoid the one where you turn 90 degress off jumprun, fly out a bit and then turn another 90 to fly parallel to jumprun. The reason being that at break off, when the jumpers on the left side of the formation fan out for seperation, they are tracking right toward jumprun, and at the end of the track you'll be right in the neighborhood of open canopies. I prefer to use a plan where you exit, and fly line of flight until all divers are out of the plane, then make a 135 degree turn, and hold that heading for the entire jump. This way, the closer you get to the end of the track, you get further away from jumprun. If you check the winds at 5k, you'll see they're often a little different than the winds at 12k (which should dictate the jumprun). Choose a left or right 135 degree turn based on what will put you upwind of the DZ at 5k, and this will help make up for the offset of the track. Another nice thing about the single turn flight plan is that it gives you an extended period of straight line flight. This tends to make for a more productive an tighter dive as you usually lose a guy or two when you make a turn. The break off is pretty basic, everyone on the outside makes a 90 degree turn to the open side, and goes to a max track. The next row of jumpers will make a 60 degree turn to the outside and max track, and so on, with the base continuing in a straight line. When leading a tracking dive on your back, I roll to my belly to signify the break off. I'll track on my belly for a few seconds, then throw a barrell roll in there to check my airspace. One other trick I use is in the last ten seconds of the dive, I turn up the speed and flatten out the glide which seperates the men from the boys. What it really does is stretch out the formation, and build in some seperation right before the break off. The last thing, and I think an important one is I make sure everyone understands that they may not make it back to the DZ on the jump. It's not a standard jump, and we don't use a standard spot, and I think it's important that everyone knows this going in. It's the responsibility of each jumper to evaluate their position in the sky, and if they feel like they're too far off, they can dump high, but only after tracking safely away from the group, clearing their airspace, and dumping with a good wave off. As such, this is not a split second decision, it takes a good 10 to 15 seconds to remove yourself from the jump, get clear and dump, but the option is there for anyone who wants it (except for the base). I'll also add this, I don't think group tracking dives are a good place for people to learn tracking. The reason being that you make a commitment to track when you take the spot waaay out there, and jumper who can't track is probably the same jumper who shouldn't be intentionally getting out so far from the DZ that they'll land off. A better plan would be a two-way with a good base. This way the base can arrange and adjust the fall rate to challenge the student, but not leave them behind. The base, who is obviously the more experienced jumper, can also arrange the flight plan so you don't have to take it way out. You can use the flight plan with two 90 degree turns with a two way, as niether jumper needs to turn in any directioj at break off, have the student flare out the track and pull in place, and base dumps soon after. Even just one or two of these dedicated jumps will prepare a jumper for what they can expect on a regular tracking dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #8 July 9, 2009 Quote Start with the climbout/exit order. On tracking dives, the hardest exit slots are actually the floaters, as they have to exit and be tracking and on level right from the start. I was on a 23-way tracking dive over a year ago in Perris in May 2008 during my first Perris trip to the big way camps (it was between the two big way camps there). I was one of the first out out of the skyvan (first row floaters) and I accidentally exited 1.5 seconds early, mis-reading an exit count. Fortunately, I levelled out, and was able to catch up to within three slots of the leader -- only 30 feet away from the base, before breakoff... It was a spetacular jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #9 July 10, 2009 Great tips Dave; thanks for all the details! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites larskjargaard 0 #10 July 10, 2009 thanks for sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #11 July 10, 2009 There are many good points in this thread. One of the things I find common amongst individuals who don't track or new trackers is that they believe that tracking dives are always flown as flat and fast as possible. Tracking dives are flown in a wide range (and the goal of a skilled tracker is to have control over a wide range). Let this be known (because there are people who won't go on tracking dives because they think that they won't be able to stay with the dive) ... PS: Here are some good videos: Nordic 2007, Nordic 2008, Nordic 2009."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Blink 0 #2 July 8, 2009 Proximity and efficient track (minimal vertical speed, maximizing horizontal speed) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morrison79 0 #3 July 8, 2009 How about checking on your other post with the same subject http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3612513;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 July 9, 2009 QuoteProximity and efficient track (minimal vertical speed, maximizing horizontal speed) Proximity is good, efficiency not so much. Like any freefall situation, each individual, based on experince, height, weight, and body type, will have a different range of speeds and abilities. If the base of the tracking dive is performing a high efficiency track, there is a good possibility that some of the people on the dive will not be able to keep up. For a group tracking dive, the best track will be of a moderate forward speed, and a moderate glide angle. This will allow the largest number of people to have the most amount of manuverability in relation to the base. This is what allows people to get into the dive, and 'fly' in relation to the base. Tracking jumps where the base is trying for a max track are just a drag race. While this can be fun, it only works when everyone on the dive is of similar ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #5 July 9, 2009 Quote can anyone offer some advice as to what would be a quality tracking dive briefing for small or large groups, novices, ect. Any other tips would also be very helpful. you want to cover the spot, the exit, the "formation" even if not slot-specific, flight plan (direction, distance, "efficiency"), break-off procedures (key, altitude, direction), opening altitude. for novices, you may need to go into more detail, and also talk a little about tracking itself - body position, steering, navigating. no briefing is complete without a mention of what to do when all goes to hell. and always ask for questions. (if it's a bigway with a debrief, decide if you're packing first debriefing later, or the other way around.) wingsuit or atmonauti organisers may have insights - the disciplines are similar.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hchunter614 0 #6 July 9, 2009 On the tracking dive I was on that Dave led I was was really worried about being able to keep up with the formation but he did a great job of keeping the dive in a range so that everyone could stay together. But towards the end of the dive when we needed separation for deployment he took off like he had afterburners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #7 July 9, 2009 Quotewhat would be a quality tracking dive briefing for small or large groups Start with the climbout/exit order. On tracking dives, the hardest exit slots are actually the floaters, as they have to exit and be tracking and on level right from the start. The early divers have the best slots as they come out close to the base, but above, which gives you an advantage. You can trade that height for speed and get right in there. Try to keep more expereinced guys as the late divers. It's actaully an easy slot, but the newbies will sometimes 'over do' it when trying to get there, and end up dive bombing the entire formation in the process. As far as the flight plan goes, avoid the one where you turn 90 degress off jumprun, fly out a bit and then turn another 90 to fly parallel to jumprun. The reason being that at break off, when the jumpers on the left side of the formation fan out for seperation, they are tracking right toward jumprun, and at the end of the track you'll be right in the neighborhood of open canopies. I prefer to use a plan where you exit, and fly line of flight until all divers are out of the plane, then make a 135 degree turn, and hold that heading for the entire jump. This way, the closer you get to the end of the track, you get further away from jumprun. If you check the winds at 5k, you'll see they're often a little different than the winds at 12k (which should dictate the jumprun). Choose a left or right 135 degree turn based on what will put you upwind of the DZ at 5k, and this will help make up for the offset of the track. Another nice thing about the single turn flight plan is that it gives you an extended period of straight line flight. This tends to make for a more productive an tighter dive as you usually lose a guy or two when you make a turn. The break off is pretty basic, everyone on the outside makes a 90 degree turn to the open side, and goes to a max track. The next row of jumpers will make a 60 degree turn to the outside and max track, and so on, with the base continuing in a straight line. When leading a tracking dive on your back, I roll to my belly to signify the break off. I'll track on my belly for a few seconds, then throw a barrell roll in there to check my airspace. One other trick I use is in the last ten seconds of the dive, I turn up the speed and flatten out the glide which seperates the men from the boys. What it really does is stretch out the formation, and build in some seperation right before the break off. The last thing, and I think an important one is I make sure everyone understands that they may not make it back to the DZ on the jump. It's not a standard jump, and we don't use a standard spot, and I think it's important that everyone knows this going in. It's the responsibility of each jumper to evaluate their position in the sky, and if they feel like they're too far off, they can dump high, but only after tracking safely away from the group, clearing their airspace, and dumping with a good wave off. As such, this is not a split second decision, it takes a good 10 to 15 seconds to remove yourself from the jump, get clear and dump, but the option is there for anyone who wants it (except for the base). I'll also add this, I don't think group tracking dives are a good place for people to learn tracking. The reason being that you make a commitment to track when you take the spot waaay out there, and jumper who can't track is probably the same jumper who shouldn't be intentionally getting out so far from the DZ that they'll land off. A better plan would be a two-way with a good base. This way the base can arrange and adjust the fall rate to challenge the student, but not leave them behind. The base, who is obviously the more experienced jumper, can also arrange the flight plan so you don't have to take it way out. You can use the flight plan with two 90 degree turns with a two way, as niether jumper needs to turn in any directioj at break off, have the student flare out the track and pull in place, and base dumps soon after. Even just one or two of these dedicated jumps will prepare a jumper for what they can expect on a regular tracking dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #8 July 9, 2009 Quote Start with the climbout/exit order. On tracking dives, the hardest exit slots are actually the floaters, as they have to exit and be tracking and on level right from the start. I was on a 23-way tracking dive over a year ago in Perris in May 2008 during my first Perris trip to the big way camps (it was between the two big way camps there). I was one of the first out out of the skyvan (first row floaters) and I accidentally exited 1.5 seconds early, mis-reading an exit count. Fortunately, I levelled out, and was able to catch up to within three slots of the leader -- only 30 feet away from the base, before breakoff... It was a spetacular jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #9 July 10, 2009 Great tips Dave; thanks for all the details! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larskjargaard 0 #10 July 10, 2009 thanks for sharing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #11 July 10, 2009 There are many good points in this thread. One of the things I find common amongst individuals who don't track or new trackers is that they believe that tracking dives are always flown as flat and fast as possible. Tracking dives are flown in a wide range (and the goal of a skilled tracker is to have control over a wide range). Let this be known (because there are people who won't go on tracking dives because they think that they won't be able to stay with the dive) ... PS: Here are some good videos: Nordic 2007, Nordic 2008, Nordic 2009."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
