Two out questions

[jsaxton 0]

I doubt if your reserve would be in front, typically you feel it lurch you from behind as it comes up and bumps into the back of your already opened main ;)

[mark 103]

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If the canopies are in a biplane configuration, you can flare the front one for landing. In CRW, I've landed about 50 biplanes. I've also watched students with 2 out do it quite well, no problems.

John:

Of the 50 biplanes you've landed, how many were personal (2-out) biplanes?

Of the 2-person biplanes you've landed, how many were landed still in biplane configuration (top guy's feet still in the bottom guy's lines through touch down)? How many were landed by flaring only the front/top canopy, without the bottom canopy flaring at all?

Mark

[steve1 5]

At Lost Prairie, two summers ago, there was a guy who had two out. I can't recall what configuration they were in, but he cut his main away when he was low to the ground. Then his reserve partially collapsed. They hauled him away in an ambulance. I'm not sure how badly he was hurt....Did anyone else see this? I'd like to know more about this particular situation, and how it could have been prevented....Steve1

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Of the 50 biplanes you've landed, how many were personal (2-out) biplanes?

Good question. Absolutely none. My only 2-canopy out jump was with round parachutes.

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Of the 2-person biplanes you've landed, how many were landed still in biplane configuration (top guy's feet still in the bottom guy's lines through touch down)? How many were landed by flaring only the front/top canopy, without the bottom canopy flaring at all?

My feet in the bottom guy's lines? Once, due to getting tangled in a cross connector. No big deal. All the rest were landed flaring the bottom canopy and top at the same time, then kicking out at 5-10 feet.

How many times have I seen a student land a biplane successfully using the techniques described? Twice. Have also known an experienced jumper who died chopping a stable biplane configuration at about 100 feet. Your questions are good, but I'll stand by my advice. It's what I would do.

Do you think it's bad advice or do you just think I'm giving apples-vs-oranges situations?

[mark 103]

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Do you think it's bad advice or do you just think I'm giving apples-vs-oranges situations?

If you are referring to flaring a CRW biplane for landing, I think it's apples-vs-oranges. To the extent that a student might think it applicable to a personal biplane I think it is bad advice.

I agree that in a stable biplane, the main canopy is a keeper. In the one 2-out biplane I've seen, the main risers snagged the reserve after cutaway, but thankfully cleared.

Oh, yeah. My only 2-out jump was with rounds, giving JCC/ICC candidates something to critique. A story for another time.

Mark

[JohnMitchell 14]

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If you are referring to flaring a CRW biplane for landing, I think it's apples-vs-oranges. To the extent that a student might think it applicable to a personal biplane I think it is bad advice.

My question back is this: Do you teach to not flare landing a biplane? If so, why?

Our DZ curriculum teaches to flare the lead canopy normally at 5-6 feet off the ground, same as a regular landing. What do you see as dangerous in this? Like I say, I've seen it work just fine twice, but I'm open to new ideas on the subjuct.

[mark 103]

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Do you teach to not flare landing a biplane?

ISP Cat A is silent about flaring or not; Section 5-1 (for experienced jumpers) recommends "minimal control input for landing," but doesn't say beyond that to flare or not.

I'd recommend against students flaring either canopy in a 2-out biplane. Flaring takes you from a configuration we think is landable (bird-in-the-hand) to a configuration that might be better or might be worse (two-in-the-bush). If the canopies are not exactly one behind the other, would stalling the front canopy cause an asymetrical wrap and then a spiral in? I don't know; perhaps an intrepid dz.commer can do the test jumps for us so our students don't have to.

In any case, a student's approach speed is likely to be low because of all that fabric out (400-500 square feet; I concede it's not the same as having a single huge canopy), so flaring isn't likely to have a great effect on forward speed or lift.

Mark

[JohnMitchell 14]

Your points are well taken. It would be hard, I think, to get killed from 5-6 feet, but weirder things have happened. I have a good friend who has already done those test jump, back with the Golden Knights. He helped us develop our doctrine. I'll ask him about the flaring stuff. To be continued . . .

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[billvon 2,434]

> Do you teach to not flare landing a biplane? If so, why?

I teach no flare. It is extremely unlikely that a student will land too hard under 500+ square feet of canopy even without a flare, and I recommend that people leave biplanes and side by sides alone as much as possible - which means not releasing brakes, not trying aggressive riser turns etc. Just steer it the minimum you need to to point it at an open area.

[Mockingbird 0]

Does anyone know where I can see a picture of someone flying their reserve? I've never seen a Reserve out. What part of the container does it come out of?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[dragon2 0]

It comes out of the top part of your rig. I'm assuming you did a first jump course, didn't your instructors tell you that?

See pics below for some reserves (PD 126R and PD 143R if I'm not mistaken).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Mockingbird 0]

Probably, but it was a very long day of training. (Much longer than where you live, where the days are shorter. Just kidding.) Thanks for posting the photos.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[riggerrob 558]

Is there any situation where you would advise trying ti induce a downplane and cutting away,?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Never!

If both canopies are big and going slow and playing well together, I would keep both.

Don't mess with success!

[riggerrob 558]

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> Do you teach to not flare landing a biplane? If so, why?

I teach no flare. It is extremely unlikely that a student will land too hard under 500+ square feet of canopy even without a flare, and I recommend that people leave biplanes and side by sides alone as much as possible - which means not releasing brakes, not trying aggressive riser turns etc. Just steer it the minimum you need to to point it at an open area.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I tried that recently with a Mant 290 and a Tempo 250 ... found that as long as I only made GENTLE (1/8) turns with the main, they stayed in a stable biplane.
Didn't even think about flaring, just clamped my knees together and did a "textbook perfect PLF."
Stood up and walked away embarrassed.

[monkycndo 0]

I had two out recently. Not giving advice, just telling what happened. I have a Sabre and roll the nose to prevent a slammer. It actually snivels pretty nice. So, I lost altitude awareness, dumped low, and while the main is opening slowly, had my cypres fire. Didn't even know it happened. I had my toggles unstowed with a good main and was turning toward the landing area. The canopy feels a little strange flying. Take a second look up and have a side by side. I take a split second to look for outs while deciding if I want to chop the main. Look back up and now have a biplane, which appears stable and is steerable. I still thought about chopping, but the SIM popped in my head about keeping a biplane. With the brakes released, it looked like the main was pulling the reserve along. With the drag of the reserve, can't make it back, so aim for my best option. I gently steered the main to an effective PLF landing. Only flared a tiny bit. Having twice the canopy overhead with a slow approach helped me make it into a pretty tight out. I'm not sure if it was the textbook thing to do, but it got me safely to the ground with only minor bruising to my leg and my pride.

Once again, not advice, just what got me down alive unbroke.

Two lessons I did learn.

1. Watch my F*CKING alti so I don't have two out in the first place.
2. Go over the EPs so they are something you don't have to think about, but something you just do.

Lucky to have just walked away,

Monkeyboy

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[EvilLurker 2]

This is an interesting thread. I've got a question, though, that hasn't really been touched on.
You've got a 2-out and it's not in a downplane, I'm assuming your reserve brakes are still set. This should make the reserve assume a higher angle of attack and trail your main, correct? So, is it safer to unstow the reserve brakes and try to get both canopies at the same airspeed, or leave well enough alone? It would seem to me (and I've never flown a 2-out, so it's conjecture), that you would be more likely to get a down-plane if you left the brakes set, since the main is going to want to fly at a higher speed and the reserve wants to kick up and stall. The reserve can downplane tail-first if it enters that configuration, correct?
What initially causes a down-plane, is what I'm getting at.

[monkycndo 0]

From what little experience I have, a canopy doesn't normally stall with brakes set. What tiny bit I remember from physics was once a body is in motion, it wants to stay going the same direction. I steered my main GENTLY to keep the reserve playing follow the leader with the main. With my biplane, the main with the brakes out and reserve with brakes set, the canopy was stable. I don't want to think about how two different canopies(9 cell main and 7 cell reserve) both with brakes released would react.

The only advice I give is read the SIM and ask your S&TA about what to do.

Monkeyboy

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[dorbie 0]

All theoretical thinking, I haven't tried this, so beware
The physics question interests me;

I don't think what you describe is likely because load is what drives a canopy forward, if the forward canopy flew ahead your load would shift to the rear and slow it. Naively you might imagine you could stall the rear canopy but I think before that happened it would act as a break as it's angle of attack increased and slowed you (taking load off the front canopy and slowing it in the process). I think these configs are stable because there's an inherent tendency for an equilibrium to be reached between two approximately equal sized canopies in a biplane. Worst case scenario (in my thinking) would result in buffeting and oscillation between front & rear canopies in a very extreme case.

[EvilLurker 2]

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Worst case scenario (in my thinking) would result in buffeting and oscillation between front & rear canopies in a very extreme case.

Yes, I was thinking that too. I just wondered if you might not be better off to release the brakes on the reserve (or leave the brakes set on the main, assuming you haven't relesed them prior) and try to get a more stable configuration.

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if the forward canopy flew ahead your load would shift to the rear and slow it.

Yeah, I agree with that, too. In my opinion, the best scenario is having a bi-plane with my reserve "nested" under the main and both with the same brake setting. Or a side-by-side where both canopies want to "keep up" with each other and not turn. Then again, if one or both was half-braked, the sink rate might be lower. So I'm confused.

[dorbie 0]

We best not agree on too much lest someone think we know what we're talking about, we don't really. Read the SIM, the advice is clear on this point.

http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/SIM2005.pdf

Page 30.

I don't want to add to your confusion, talk to your instructor.

[EvilLurker 2]

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talk to your instructor

I don't really have an instructor. I was just hoping to get some tips from someone who's had a 2-out or a manufacturer's test jumper and whether they tried releasing the brakes on both canopies, and if so, what happened. That kind of stuff is nice to know before it happens to you. I would imagine it also depends on the size ratio between your main and reserve.

[Don.Key 0]

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Does anyone know where I can see a picture of someone flying their reserve? I've never seen a Reserve out. What part of the container does it come out of?

Go to skydivingmovies.com look under malfunctions, you will see lots of reserves deploying :)

Which kinda brings me to a question, that Cypres video on skydivingmovies in which 2 cypres fire and save skydivers, the one which is filming ends up with biplane, very close to earth.

How come? Isn`t cypres firing the reserve only? Also he cuts away his main almost immediately, why would he do that on such low altitude?

[dorbie 0]

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Which kinda brings me to a question, that Cypres video on skydivingmovies in which 2 cypres fire and save skydivers, the one which is filming ends up with biplane, very close to earth.

How come? Isn`t cypres firing the reserve only? Also he cuts away his main almost immediately, why would he do that on such low altitude?

I know the video you mean, scarey.

The guy with the two out pulled his main when he turned belly to earth after seeing his partner's cypres fire, at around the same time he pulled his main his cypres deployed his reserve. This is a common way that two outs are caused. It looks like his cypres fired much later than his buddys.

He chopped because his main was turnigng to the left and looked like it was starting to develop into a downplane configuration, watch what his canopy does before he chops. He may have made it do that himself it's impossible to tell from the video.