"Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals

[Andy9o8 0]

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I don't see the issue here. All they are saying is if your sponsor didn't pay to be here they will not advertise here. Pretty simple and easy to understand. Why would anyone pay to sponsor an event if anyone could come in and advertise for free??

But as I said up-thread, Chris, team sponsors have paid to be there, and their advertising is not for free. True, they haven't paid to the event hosts, but they have paid a pretty penny to sponsor the teams that are competing there - and without those sponsorships, many of the competing teams wouldn't exist in the first place. And then what good would the competition be? This short-sighted policy hurts the teams,, and is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.

[dqpacker 7]

So what Sponsored Teams are affected by this? Your team? Airspeed?- nope two of their sponsors are sponsors of nationals. Are you even competing? Do you have sponsor obligations? If not, why are you so against this?

[davelepka 4]

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Last year at my event someone invited a food vendor. When they showed up they wanted to set up right next to the building we were in. Had I allowed it that would have been a pretty shitty thing to do to the Carbones. I had them set up in an area that was set aside for spectators.

Again, you're missing the distinction between a vendor, there on a commercial basis, and a competitior who is there to compete and is a dues paying member of the USPA.

The DZ is a for-profit venture, their business is to sell slots. If Mike Mullins wanted to sponsor a team, and wanted to show up with his KIng Air and sell slots, then that is a conflict, and the DZ should not allow that.

However, this is not a for-profit event in terms of the USPA. This event is for the enjoyment and benefit of the competitors. By selecting a DZ that would impose these restrictions on the competitors, the USPA acted against it's membership, and I'm not sure how you can see this as acceptable.

You suggest that I bid on Nationals, and see what I can do for free. Well, this issue has never come up in the past, either the DZ ran is for free, or found sponsorship that would 'play nice' with the competitors. Like I said before, if the DZ cannot run Nationals without this limitation in place, then they either got in over their heads trying to host it, or they have set the bar too high in what they want to do.

Either way, the needs of the competitors should be #1 above all else.

I like how one of the pakcers from Spaceland keeps posting that, 'T-shirts, and jumpsuit with patches are still allowed'. Yeah right, try running Nationals without allowing skydiving T-shirts on the DZ, see who shows up.

[dqpacker 7]

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I like how one of the pakcers from Spaceland keeps posting that, 'T-shirts, and jumpsuit with patches are still allowed'. Yeah right, try running Nationals without allowing skydiving T-shirts on the DZ, see who shows up.

Those post were directed at the people who kept saying that Canopies, Jumpsuits, t-shirts, etc. where not allowed. I was just trying to clear things up. Sorry your panties are in a bunch over something so small.

[davelepka 4]

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So what Sponsored Teams are affected by this? Your team? Airspeed?- nope two of their sponsors are sponsors of nationals. Are you even competing? Do you have sponsor obligations? If not, why are you so against this?

Because it's bullshit.


So the DZ has sponsors for the event who are helping to foot the bill for Nationals. Let's keep in mind that part of the bill for hosting Nationals is getting your facilities ready to handle an event of this size. More restrooms, showers, bunk houses, team room, creeping area, etc, are all going to be needed to pull this off.

So the DZ rounds up some sponsors to help pay for those, and other costs. Here's the rub - the week after Nationals is over, and the mess is cleaned up, all of those improvements still exist at the DZ. The management ends up with a better DZ, and the sponsors helped to pay for it. The same sponsors that put a limitation on the competitors.

You want examples of who is effected? I don't know, but a DZ with a sponsored team who planned to send their windblade and packing tent, to make a statement that 'Skydive Smithtown is a cool DZ where we support our jumpers' is going to be out of luck. Out of luck because they already comitted to the sponsorship, already bought and lettered the tent, and they end up with zero.

Let's move forward - what is this going to do for teams looking for sponsorship next year? You can bet that any business who had the rug pulled out from under them this year is not going to be in a hurry to commit to a team for next year. Furhtermore, any business who is not invovled this year probably won't be looking to sign up a team for next year.


Your examples are poor at best. Nobody is worried about Airspeed. Their business extends far past Nationals, and this won't put a dent in their program. It the smaller teams, who manage to work out a deal for discoutned jumps, and 50% off jumpsuits that are going to suffer. Those are the teams that are going to have trouble finding sponsors in the future if businesses know that this type of thing could happen.

[RPC1117 0]

A simple, hypothetical question - If the Golden Knights show up and are in the process of putting up a packing tent that says "US Army" on it...you support and think that it is right for the dropzone telling them they have to take it down or cover the "US Army" logo b/c they haven't paid enough to be there?

*disclaimer - I have no connection to the Knights...just using them as an example*

[dqpacker 7]

Ok I get your point about small teams. But what DZ would let someone put up another DZ's windblade? This is not a Boogie.
And yes the new facilities and improvements will still be here when this years nationals is over. And then they will be used for Collegiate's in December, then swoop nationals 2010 and 11, then maybe a TSR or other Big Way Camps and events.
I hope you all come to Spaceland this year and years to come and have a wonderful time, whether you like this policy or not.
Well I got to go enjoy a beautiful sunny Texas day. It's the last day I have off until Nationals is over.

[dqpacker 7]

Good question.
My Opinion- Not the DZ's

If it is just a tent with Golden Knights on the side. Sure I think that would be fine because it is just a team name . But if they are selling tshirts or other product, that goes against the policy. But the knights have government backing as long as we pay our taxes they will be able to have a team.
Like I said in my last post I'm going to go enjoy my last day off before nationals.

[davelepka 4]

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Ok I get your point about small teams. But what DZ would let someone put up another DZ's windblade? This is not a Boogie.

How about every DZ that has hosted Nationals before this year?

If this was a boogie at a DZ, like Summerfest at SDC, I wouldn't expect them to allow a windblade from a competing DZ. They would allow it, but if they didn't I would understand that. Summerfest is a for-profit venture put on by SDC, and anyone who doesn't like is free to go to Lost Prarie, or some other boogie.

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yes the new facilities and improvements will still be here when this years nationals is over. And then they will be used for Collegiate's in December, then swoop nationals 2010 and 11, then maybe a TSR or other Big Way Camps and events.

You've made my point quite well. The DZ will profit off of those improvemnts for years to come, the same improvements paid for in part by sponsors, the same sponsors who are placing limitations on the competitors.

And shit, I wish I had thought of the Knights. What are you going to do with them? Their whole game plan is to advertise and recruit for the Army, and they have windblades, and tents up the wazoo. Who's going to tell them no?

Somebody better tell them no.

[pilotdave 0]

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But what DZ would let someone put up another DZ's windblade?

How many teams have another DZ's name in their team name? If they put up a wind blade from their home DZ next to their packing tent, who cares? But I didn't even see anything like that at last years nationals. What I saw were some of the bigger teams with displays at their packing tents from their real sponsors (some non-skydiving-related). Maybe those teams will lose their sponsorships next year when the sponsors find out the teams can't advertise on their own packing tents.

This is not an issue of confusion between official event sponsors and companies trying to pretend to be event sponsors. We're talking about packing tents. This is like telling a NASCAR team to put a tarp over their trailer because Tide didn't sponsor the event.

I realize that everybody loves to defend the practices of their own DZs, no matter how shady they are. But let me be clear, these are shady practices and I hope USPA was duped and didn't know about this when they placed nationals there.

My guess is that this idea came from a marketing company the DZ hired. Hopefully the DZ will realize the mistake they're making.

Who benefits from this? I assume they can charge official sponsors more for exclusivity. Sure doesn't benefit USPA members.

Dave

[riggerpaul 1]

Boy, this one really has the hackles up fast. I can hardly keep up with the posts.

Anyway, I guess I am not as opposed to it as some are.

I went back and re-read the announcement several times, and it does allow people to jump with their branded or logo'd gear.

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For the 2009 USPA National Skydiving Championships, sponsored teams or individuals will be allowed to wear their sponsored gear and sponsor clothing but they will not be permitted to hand out any sponsor products, literature or advertisements about these companies.

I take this to mean that you can still jump the canopy you've been training on even if it has something from the sponsor on it.

I still worry some about if this excludes some teams that should not be excluded.

Someone posted the example of the Golden Knights packing tent. I like the example, and I'd like to know the answer to that question.

Many have pointed out that this is supposed to be a not-for-profit USPA even for the benefit of the membership, and I think that is a very important point. If Spaceland is trying to make a profit from it, I don't think that's a good thing. If Spaceland excludes a competitor in the name of even breaking even, I don't think they should have that right.

Another function of this event is to pick the membership for the national team that will represent us in international competition. And I do not want to see any competitor excluded, because it might mean a weaker national team.

That sort of leads back to the Golden Knights question.

It seems to me that active promotion, selling, give-aways and the like are reasonable to exclude. But passive advertising on your gear, including your tents, should not prohibited. Your packing tent is part of your gear. It helps to keep you in top shape for competition. If Spaceland wants to provide covered packing hangars for everyone, maybe that would mean they could exclude the packing tent. But unless they provide a level playing field (sorry for the pun), they should not exclude any passive advertising that appears on something that might reasonably be considered part of the team's gear. Your airblade, however, is not part of your gear. it is strictly advertising, and serves no purpose related to enhancing your athletic performance. So I have no problem excluding it.

Of course, my $.02, ymmv

[RPC1117 0]

See...there's the catch. The Knights are "sponsored" by the US Army.

Here's where I'm going with this. The Knights are a great marketing tool for the Army. What if someone has a question for them on how they can become a Knight? From how I read this, the Knights would not be allowed to hand out any promo literature about the Army and would also not be allowed to give anyone a t shirt that says Army on it.

So is it ok so long as they aren't selling the t shirts? The policy says no. No freebies...nothing. I think that the policy is fine if it says no selling. But telling teams that they can't put a sponsor's name on a tent, blade, etc...is a little too much. Would a team that has a DZ name attached to it (i.e. - Deland Majik or Perris Fury) have to cover the DZ portion of the team name on a packing tent with the team name on the side? After all, the DZ is a sponsor of that team?

[Krip 2]

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I'm going to be interested to see just who these 'partners' are. I'm also going to be interested to see if these are skydiving-related companies, and I'd be really interested to know if these companies are aware of the impact that this arrangement is going to have on the competitors.

http://www.uspanationals.com/partners.htm

Is this the correct link?

One Jump Wonder

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I'll just agree to disagree. Some of you don't have a clue what goes into running this event. All they are saying is if you want to advertise on our property you are going to pay us. Probably should have been stated before now.

If you think that hosting nationals is going to pay for even part of what Spaceland(or any other DZ that has hosted it) has done to prepare for it you are lost.

When it is said this is a non-profit event,that means for USPA not the DZ that is hosting it.It the DZ was not supposed to make a profit,which most don't, no one would ever bid on it.

[skybytch 259]

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Some of you don't have a clue what goes into running this event

And some of us do know what goes into putting on an event.

What some of you aren't getting is the fact that this isn't Spaceland's event. It's USPA's event. If this were a boogie, or a competition solely put on by the dropzone, or a competition put on by a private organization in conjunction with a dropzone (think PST or NSL) - I doubt that anybody would have an issue with it. My event, my rules; your event, your rules.

But it's not the Spaceland Nationals. It's the USPA Nationals. And as I posted before - according to USPA, the USPA Nationals are an opportunity for the entire skydiving industry to see and be seen. Limiting who can be seen to those who have paid extra money goes directly against the stated mission of the event. An event that is put on with the help of your and my USPA dues.

Knowing skydivers though, I'm sure at least some of the competitors that aren't sponsored by the proper manufacturers will come up with some fun way to express their dissatisfaction. After all, the press release doesn't say anything about what the offensive logos can or can't be covered with.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

My reply was not aimed at you or any one person.

This would be one of those times that it would be good to hear from our USPA reps. Politics being what it is,that aint gonna happen.

[AggieDave 6]

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If Spaceland is trying to make a profit from it

The chances of Spaceland even coming close to breaking even is laughable. I seriously doubt a DZ has "made a profit" hosting nationals in a very long time. Not when competitors expect team rooms, huge packing, huge planes, facilities that go well beyond a port-a-potty.

So a DZ is supposed to host a HUGE event and they are expected by jumpers to operate at a huge loss?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 6]

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I don't see the issue here. All they are saying is if your sponsor didn't pay to be here they will not advertise here. Pretty simple and easy to understand. Why would anyone pay to sponsor an event if anyone could come in and advertise for free??

But as I said up-thread, Chris, team sponsors have paid to be there, and their advertising is not for free. True, they haven't paid to the event hosts, but they have paid a pretty penny to sponsor the teams that are competing there - and without those sponsorships, many of the competing teams wouldn't exist in the first place. And then what good would the competition be? This short-sighted policy hurts the teams,, and is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.

And again I ask, because I really am curious...

WHICH actual teams does this hurt and exactly HOW?


If someone says there are on 'Team Buffalo Snot' and their sponsor which gave them $20,000 to compete, won't do so next year because they can't put up a wind blade...then maybe we'd have some 'real world' evidence that the sky IS falling.

To be moaning that this will ruin the U.S. Nationals because....um because...well...just because nobody ever did that before, ~is at this point almost laughable.




Where's The Beef ??

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BikerBabe 0]

your question was answered already:

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Your examples are poor at best. Nobody is worried about Airspeed. Their business extends far past Nationals, and this won't put a dent in their program. It the smaller teams, who manage to work out a deal for discoutned jumps, and 50% off jumpsuits that are going to suffer. Those are the teams that are going to have trouble finding sponsors in the future if businesses know that this type of thing could happen.

what about teams with DZs in their names? Perris Fury has "Perris Valley Skydiving" all over their stuff, guess they are SOL. or better yet, what about a team like CSC Rhythm or other Advanced class teams who manage to eke out sponsorships with the promise that they will promote their sponsors. Now they have to renege on those promises?

I'm interested in the Golden Knights question.

Also, i haven't seen this point brought up much, but the TIMING of this seems a bit shady in and of itself. TWO WEEKS (!!!) before the event, they drop this bomb? That's bullshit right there.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[skybytch 259]

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So a DZ is supposed to host a HUGE event and they are expected by jumpers to operate at a huge loss?

Nobody forced them to take it on. If running Nationals was such a huge monetary loss, I seriously doubt that any dz would choose to bid on it. Perris, Eloy and Chicago must have gotten some good out of hosting Nationals in the past, otherwise the businessmen running those dz's wouldn't have done it.

The dz benefits from holding Nationals in numerous ways above and beyond making money. They get exposed to hundreds of very active skydivers, which amounts to very focused advertising. They get a name mention - free advertising - in every Nationals ad in Parachutist and in articles that will run in every skydiving related magazine and on every skydiving related website. They get continued use of any permanent facilities that they have added for the event, These facilities can be used for future events (boogies, local competitions). Local skydiving related businesses (packers, lofts, gear stores) get a boost during the event.

I'm not at all against the hosting dz making a profit. Businesses that make a profit tend to be able to stay in business. That's a good thing. Really it is.

Excluding manufacturers who didn't pony up first or in the proper amount from an event that has a stated aim of being one that the entire skydiving industry can be a part of isn't an ethical way of making a profit. imho, of course.

[AggieDave 6]

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Nobody forced them to take it on. If running Nationals was such a huge monetary loss, I seriously doubt that any dz would choose to bid on it. Perris, Eloy and Chicago must have gotten some good out of hosting Nationals in the past, otherwise the businessmen running those dz's wouldn't have done it.

There are benefits, but I was addressing people who posted and assumed that a DZ's actions were to increase their profits. For some reason jumpers assume that DZs generate huge profits by operating facilities and aircraft.

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Excluding manufacturers who didn't pony up first or in the proper amount from an event that has a stated aim of being one that the entire skydiving industry can be a part of isn't an ethical way of making a profit. imho, of course.

Ok. We can discuss this in person at nationals this year. See you there?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[airtwardo 6]

...opportunity for the entire skydiving industry to see and be seen.

[Fast 0]

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Ok I get your point about small teams. But what DZ would let someone put up another DZ's windblade? This is not a Boogie.

How about every DZ that has hosted Nationals before this year?

If this was a boogie at a DZ, like Summerfest at SDC, I wouldn't expect them to allow a windblade from a competing DZ. They would allow it, but if they didn't I would understand that. Summerfest is a for-profit venture put on by SDC, and anyone who doesn't like is free to go to Lost Prarie, or some other boogie.

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yes the new facilities and improvements will still be here when this years nationals is over. And then they will be used for Collegiate's in December, then swoop nationals 2010 and 11, then maybe a TSR or other Big Way Camps and events.

You've made my point quite well. The DZ will profit off of those improvemnts for years to come, the same improvements paid for in part by sponsors, the same sponsors who are placing limitations on the competitors.

And shit, I wish I had thought of the Knights. What are you going to do with them? Their whole game plan is to advertise and recruit for the Army, and they have windblades, and tents up the wazoo. Who's going to tell them no?

Somebody better tell them no.

I agree. It would be one thing if it was a boogie. This isn't a boogie, it's the nationals. I could understand offering a premium spot or advertising space on the dropzone for major event sponsors and limiting where anyone else can have their logo'd tents or whatever they want to do (so long as it's part of a sponsored team). But telling the teams to go fuck themselves is a really shitty move in my opinion.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[skybytch 259]

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We can discuss this in person at nationals this year. See you there?

Whether I'm there or not has no bearing on the discussion (red herring, anyone?). If you have a right to an opinion about how and where USPA spends the dues that you pay, why should I not have the same right? Doesn't matter if I'm competing or not. It's my money being spent to promote the event. I'm entitled to have and express my opinion on the matter, just as you and anybody else who pays money to USPA every year is.

This is an exclusionary policy being imposed on what is supposed to be an inclusive event. That's the issue.

I also question how this is going to be enforced. If Joe is packing with his Flight Concepts pull up cord, are the advertising police going to take it away? What if Bob is packing next to Joe and needs a pull up cord? Will Joe get booted because he gave advertising materials to someone? What about stickers on cars in the parking lot? The parking lot is dz property, right? Or RV's belonging to manufacturers that are there to support their teams? Do they have to cover their logos to be allowed to park there?

[AndyBoyd 0]

I cannot believe this is a serious issue. When did this corporate America bullshit become so prevalent? As a competitor at this year's event, I find this entire situation and the resulting uproar embarassing to the sport. Has everyone forgotten why it is we jump out of airplanes? Or has everyone's motivation changed when I wasn't looking?