My 1st canopy was loaded at 1.33 and it hurt

[thecap 0]

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I had in mind a 170.. I weight about 220 (currently on diet je je) I have about 60 jumps, although my learning has been great in the sport, and it looks as if i´m a natural cannopy flyer, some instructors recommend to start with a 190...and my instructor, which I did my AFF with, thinks I could handle the 170 perfectly... I´m kind of undecided... the other thing is buying the 190 and after 50 jumps feeling its kind of "slow"...!

I weigh about 175 lbs with gear. I bought a 210 sq ft PD F111 at around jump 40 (was looking for something a bit smaller but the price was good) and am still happily using it 18 months later with 180 jumps. I've demo jumped some ZP 190s and like the strong flare but would not say I'm bored with my current canopy. Lack of money for new gear and a generally cautious attitude may be affecting my priorities :-) but I don't know why every one is in such a rush to get down to the ground. I like hanging out in the sky and have never got more than a gentle tease for my boat. Go big, Flyexis.

[Lindsey 0]

It's really unfortunate that your instructors steered you in this direction. What I wonder, though, is what YOU thought about your wingloading in that year. Surely by the time you had 200 jumps you recognized that some people's canopies flew faster than others and that wingloading was an important part of that equation. What were YOUR thoughts about your wingloading, and what factors figured into your continuing to jump a canopy that you realized was over your head?

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[xavenger 0]

Hey Lindsey

It wasn't until just before the time of the accident that I began to truly realise that my wing-loading versus experience level might be the "root" of my problems. At that point I genuinely had it in my head that I would try "just another" handful of jumps before considering different kit. Yeah, stupid in retrospect.

When I asked their advice about my problems - other people would ask me what I was flying, I'd tell them and they'd nearly always say "yeah, that sounds about right". Even when I worked out the wing loading and told people it was 1.33+ everyone said that was absolutely OK. 100s of people thought this was fine.

On this overwhelmingly agreeable feedback about my gear and canopy size - I just began to assume that it was entirely a problem with my own ability and that I was a useless canopy pilot. Of course there may be some truth in that last statement, but I now sure my wing loading was the greatest factor in my problems.

What little "battle on and succeed" instinct I have - made me absolutely (in hindsight stupidly) determined to figure out and get to the bottom of the problem landing my canopy - despite the fact I'd started to become quite scared of flying the canopy.

I thought at one point I had sorted out the problems - only to find that, I had merely learned to land the canopy in a particular set environment. When that environment changed, well that’s when I hurt myself.

Despite the fact I always thought to myself "sheesh - this thing comes in a lot faster than I would like" - the sad thing is I didn't really even consider that I should be on a bigger canopy. Why? Well I'll try and list off the main points ..

1/ Everyone I asked seem to think it was me and not the canopy (and of course depending on your perspective my skill level was of course a contributing factor)

2/ Reinforcing the first point - the friends I made at dropzones around the world with similar experience levels and jump numbers seemed to be able to land their canopies with much fewer problems. In addition to making me think it was all “just me” it made me to say to myself “if they can do it – I’m SURE can do it”. I only now realise their canopies were loaded less than mine and this made a substantial difference.

3/ As a result of the points above I became determined to resolve the problem by jumping lots - in a perverse way - so that I would gain experience of the canopy faster and also to prove to myself I could do it. This accelerated me towards an accident.

4/ I really did not know enough about wing-loading issues until towards the end - partly because I did the last 150 jumps in a relatively short space of time (a few months) so perhaps hadn't been around enough to naturally accumulate that knowledge in the absence of me having directly been given it.

5/ I knew that smaller canopies etc flew faster from day one but as I was recommended the canopy assumed this was the size for me as a new skydiver. Also, even when I began to get wise to the issue - I didn't fully appreciate that a 1- 1.1 would have been **substantially** more docile than a 1.33-1.45.


The cost of replacing the canopy/rig was not an issue at all and neither was trying to impress anyone. I *thought* I was being extremely conservative and the only thing I ever wanted to do was land the thing, safely, on my feet with a nice straight in landing.

I WAS however constantly trying to meet the expectations I had of *myself* that I had accumulated from talking to other people about my canopy – i.e. that I should be able to fly and land the canopy absolutely OK. I was never "bothered" about meeting their expectations (i.e. I didn't ever keep jumping the canopy to prove a point to anyone whatsoever) but I did jump it thinking I needed to learn it and meet my own expectations of what I "should" be able to do.

I hope that makes sense. You know us Brits, all the rain stops us from thinking straight.


:-)

James


PS. For the benefit of anyone else in a similar situation as me - wanting some extra incentive to upsize .. Just found some post operative pictures (aside from the breaks I had a thing called Acute Compartment Syndrome which wasn't good whatsoever) - will give you a feel for what both sides of my leg now look like after my accident.

[Lindsey 0]

I remember when I started skydiving it seemed that everyone knew so much more than me....and they did. Most still do. It's sooooo important to listen to instructors and others who are more experienced, but at the same time we HAVE to be responsible for ourselves. I, personally, feel very strongly about individual responsibility. At the same time, early on, we're VERY dependent on our mentors.

What struck me about your incident was your time in the sport and number of jumps and a seeming lack of awareness about what your risks were due to your wingloading. I'm not flaming you at all, but just making an observation. Having made your last 150 jumps in just a few months, it makes a little more sense.

It's frightening to me, though, that people can get that far along and still not have a sense, for themselves, about what type of canopy they should be flying. Often we hear about people getting in over their heads, but with an attitude of "I know what I'm doing....I can handle this," and NOT listening to sound advice. In your situation, it's reversed. You really weren't aware of what you were getting into, and you followed advice of people who gave you bad instruction it sounds like.

I'm thinking that a big lesson to take from this is to learn as much as you can to make yourself safe. It's good to listen to advice of others, but you're the one who has to be able to keep yourself safe. Be heads up. Listen to others. Learn, learn, learn. REALIZE that nobody else is responsible for you but you....nobody's gonna feel the consequences of your decisions like you are.

Thanks for your post.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[n23x 0]

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...aside from the breaks I had a thing called Acute Compartment Syndrome which wasn't good whatsoever)...

It could have led to atrophy and loss of that portion of the limb, as well.

Heal quick.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[xavenger 0]

I agree that broadly speaking people should take personal responsibility - but what a person perceives as "responsible" can be moulded by the advice and education they receive over a period of time. You can't expect someone to make a good decision if they have been given bad information and then are constantly told it was right by lots of different people.


"I think I might need a bigger canopy"

Response

"Noooo there is nothing wrong with your canopy, you just need some more jumps, maybe some canopy coaching, you just need to build your condfidence"

When you hear that 50 times you begin to believe it.


I think one important point is that wing-loading is discussed quite a bit here on Dropzone.com and in fact whenever there is an accident or someone has repetitive problems one of the first questions always asked is what is/was that persons wing-loading?

In the physical world I have only come across 1 person that seemed to actually have cared to work it out for themselves or worked it out for those people they were making gear recommendations to. Sure, everyone sort of eye-balls you - considers your canopy for a second and goes "yeah that sounds OK", but if people were to sit down and work it out pound for pound - they might be surprised.

People should move away from "guessing" it and really get in to the habit of working it out exactly. Also, at the end of AFF I think there should be a 30 minute brief on wing-loading and canopy selection, where a specific size is worked out for a student using maths(!) and a FIXED SET of criteria (i.e. not open to intrepretation by the AFF instructor). Then, whatever happens the student has a conservative reference point.

Even when I had worked out my wing-loading *exactly* towards the end - because I asked people with 1000s of jumps made over a long period of time who were used to flying small canopies - it always sounded OK to them. It sounded slow to them. I think a lot had forgotten what it was like to be "new" and didn't consider that someone like me hadn't had 10-15 years worth of experience in the sport.

regards

J

[Lindsey 0]

....and that's the other, more obvious, lesson.....be careful about what kind of recommendations we all make to people who are new in the sport.

Thanks!
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Zoter 0]

Yu hear it on here all the time......buy a canopy thats right for your experience now....not what you think your experience will be in 200jumps time.

I have a huge canopy and its totally square.......and whilst being on the butt of jokes regarding its size......I have learned an absolutely huge amount in terms of canopy control in the last year on this 'bus'....becoming more confident bit by bit in all aspects of canopy control.

I'm so happy I have not downsized eraly.....instead of worrying about control and landing I have been able to experiment and learn new techniques...confident in my able to handle the canopy

I absolutely know now thats going to be a huge benefit if I decide to downsize......taking the time to learn canopy survival skills on a forgiving platform.

'They' ( the experienced ones )all said it....I didnt think so.....but they were absolutely right.

I enjoy the fact now that I can put that canopy down safely where I want it in just about any reasonable wind condition....nil or high

[DancingFlame 0]

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and a FIXED SET of criteria (i.e. not open to intrepretation by the AFF instructor).

You see, one size does not fit all.
My 1st canopy was loaded 1.33 but it didn't hurt. Well, I've got my own gear only when I was close to jump #100 and I've got some canopy coaching.
I was fully confident in my abilites. I could do most or even all points from famous billvon's list. So when I've got broken line (after 150-200 jumps on that canopy) I just landed it using rears.

It's always up to you. If you aren't sure that you can handle this canopy, you definitely CAN'T! Upsize and be sure you are safe jumper.

[xavenger 0]

I "do see" - of course one size doesn't fit all. That's not the point of what I was saying. The purpose of recommending a canopy size to a new AFF graduate using fixed criteria was so that they have a conservative reference point from which to work.

If they then want to go off and get something faster or someone recommends something faster to them they at least KNOW what the guidelines are from day 1, it should immediately make them more cautious when choosing a canopy because they know the guidelines.

They should be educated as to what the very real increase in risks are by going beyond those guidelines to enable them to make an informed decision. This stuff should be done the moment someone qualifies AFF for their safety and the well being of the sport in general.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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It's always up to you. If you aren't sure that you can handle this canopy, you definitely CAN'T! Upsize and be sure you are safe jumper.

I`ve bought mine. I was not sure if I could handle it. I trusted my mentors and I`m still flying as conservative as I can. I still fear and respect my canopy, but I`ve gained some confidence with flying it.

[Flyexis 0]

aaaa... flying in the sky is nice.. but I like full pull on one of the toggles and spining down, at 1,500 start enjoying the flight and get a good landing pattern.. I´m kind of an agressive cannopy flyer, but have a lot of concious at landing... thanks 4 opinion..

[DancingFlame 0]

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but I like full pull on one of the toggles and spining down, at 1,500 start enjoying the flight

Please, never do that. Spirallng down is always a bad idea. Especially if you have lightly loaded wing.

[Flyexis 0]

why is a bad idea?? please answer...
thanks for opinion...

[DancingFlame 0]

First of all, spiralling down is the easy way to miss traffic. Your vision is greatly changed because your body is not in plain vertical position. Collisions under canopy are very dangerous.
Second, in a turn your canopy loose altitute quickly. So you may go low on your big wing, even lower than some experienced jumpers with pocket-rocket-canopies. People would not be happy with that because they will be forced to change their landing pattern.
Third, when you start jumping bigways, there will be a lot of people everywhere in the air. Spiralling down is the best way to collide with somebody else.
And the last but not the least reason: rules. On some DZs (for example Aerograd Kolomna) spiralling is strictly forbidden. It's all about safety.


Plus, please, ask your instructor and S&TA about spiralling. They will definitely give you more reasons to stop that practice.

[kieran_kearney 0]

Thanks for this advice. I also have got into the habit of doing some spiralling, mainly to bleed altitude and the fun of it. I would make sure there were no other canopies

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close to me and never saw it as a safety issue. I will be more careful from now on.

Also, in relation to wing loading. I have a wingloading of 1 on my Sabre 190. I was going to downsize to 170, but one of my instructors told me to hold off until I was completely confident with my canopy skills, and he also mentiopned that sooner or later I would land off, and maybe with minimal outs, so a nice big fat 190 would be the safest way to deal with such a situation. I repacked my 190 back into my rig on his advice and sure enough, 4 jumps later, on opening I found myself a long way from the DZ and very little outs, apart from a small patch of green surrounded by trees directly beneath me. I set myself up to land in this small patch and did a nice soft landing in the middle of the patch of green, which ironically turned out to be cemetary. I was glad I heeded the advice of my instructor. If I was flying the 170 I would have been coming in a lot faster into that patch of green, and my have done something stupid to avoid obstacles. I will fly my Sabre 190 for several more jumps and will ONLY downsize when my instructors and me are confident I can handle the added performance.

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[Flyexis 0]

Greetings fellow flyer.. well I defenetly agree in all your points, but I was looking for a malfunction of cannopy while spinning down reason... I´m @ a dropzone with very, very few funjumpers... so trust me its ok when it comes to traffic matters... but when jumping with more flyers I´ll defenetly have your advice in mind !!
Still here, thanks 4 advice ...

[DancingFlame 0]

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I was looking for a malfunction of cannopy while spinning down reason

No, it is impossible unless you make some really hard control input using toggles.
Until you make only gentle and soft inputs, spiralling will not cause line twists. Hit a 'Search' button there are a lot of explanations about this.

[HydroGuy 0]

I can't believe the number of A license holders that don't know
A. The definition of wing loading
B. How to calculate it.
C. What their personal wing loading is.

I mean, it's figured out for you in your profile.

I downsized from a 210 to a 190 and beat the hell out of myself. Nothing like a smaller canopy to teach you the importance of following through on your flare...and flying the canopy the entire way till your completely stopped.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ok. Try to believe it.
When I was a A licensed skydiver I did not know anything about wing loading. I was jumping the rig given by my instructor.

Thanks God not every A (or not even) licensed start sucking the wisdom here!

[damion75 0]

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It's just not safety, it's also comfort and flying something that will best teach you. You can end up in a situation where you're scared of your canopy and instead of learning to land, you learn how to do controlled crashes.

You are so right - its not even just about not being scared - when I got my first rig (a 170) another guy I used to jump with a lot with similar numbers and same weight got a 150 just to be 'one step ahead'!! Anyway... three hundred jumps later, I have a 150 which I love and can land pretty sweetly and accurately. In the same time he has done under a hundred and still hasn't learned to fly the thing! I don't think he is scared, just so busy trying to come down in one piece that he doesn't care how or where... I guess he wasn't really 'one step ahead' at all! Nugget...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Squeak 17]

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Ok. Try to believe it.
When I was a A licensed skydiver I did not know anything about wing loading. I was jumping the rig given by my instructor.

Thanks God not every A (or not even) licensed start sucking the wisdom here!

It's not about getting on Dizzy before your jump (or get your A) It's about instruction. as a part of our training we (here in perth) are taught about wingloading and it's effect on the canopy, we are also told about WLing F111 fabric at or below 1:1.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people throw themselves out of planes with very little knowledge of what they're doing.
I'm possibly just a nerd but I investigated as much as I could about skydiving after I decided to do my AFF course.
That's how I found DZ.com,
You put your life on the line when taking up sports like this, do your home work, don't expect other people to hold your hand and spoon feed you stuff

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?