Sad news for tandem

[rhys 0]

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I love Tandem and know having an AFF rating would not make me a better Tandem Master.

As some one who had 2000 tandems before getting my AFF ticket, and now having 6000 tandems, I disagree. I don't think you can know that until you've been there. The way you teach changes. The way you see the "student" changes.

I Agree,

And if anything, some variation in your life will help stop you from becomeing an apathetic, grumpy, money driven Tandem master!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[douwanto 22]

the harness was properly applied. Bo's friends helped MG move him to the tailgate by lifting his weight as mike walked and threw the exit.While he was carried to the door by his pants they were sliding down toward his knees and the legstraps along with them.Even taping the legstraps to his pants would not have prevented this. securing the laterals tighter and positioning the hip junctions behind the hips ( this is contrary to UPT recommended placement but would have limited the harness forward movement down Bo's thighs) and correctly lifting by the harness instead of his legs all may have prevented his ejection in my opinion. The decision to not secure Bo into the harness as in his first tandem with MG was made by both Bo and MG after Bo shared that desire and they discussed it.

Considering Bo's handicaps and his request not to be secured as in the first jump extra precautions were needed but not foreseen or anticipated.

also if since you have viewed the video you may have realized as I did that utilizing as mush free fall to reposition BO in the harness along with hooking his knees may have given him a better chance at remaining in the harness but mike did acted as he and every TI are taught and only after the fact could that be determined.

Yes it was a horrible accident that can be prevented in the future and learning from the mistakes is important. I know AFF I's DZO's, riggers, TI.s and regular skydivers who have directly been involved in incidents all over the world who are among the very best in the world today because they have learned lessons no one wants to learn and we all learn from their failures.

All the opinions concerning this incident are solely mine and do not come from any communications with MG or UPT (RWS).

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[douwanto 22]

I am always open to new and better techniques and would love your thoughts on how my approach and attitude to tandems will change once I have an AFF rating and experience. Also how those change manifest themselves because of the AFF rating.

I agree that flying skills for AFF are much greater on most jumps but safety procedures and mental processing in extreme situations during tandem sky dives far exceed those needed for aff because of the amount of undetermined emergency situations possible during tandem sky dives and the complexity of tandem systems.

Again this is my opinion and I respect yous thoughts on the topic.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[Para5-0 0]

c'mon fellas, this is ridiculous to compare the two diciplines. ( Tandem/AFF ) Apples to oranges. They are two very different animals and to say one is harder or more complex is absurd. It is the similarities that should be discussed. Such as maturity of the instructor, overall experience needed, air time, time in sport, jump requirements, ground student preperation techniques..... judge the system for obtaining both or the paths that one should take to become an instructor. The fact is that the system has flaws some can be adjusted or corrected some may not be able to.
I do Tandems and AFF so I do know what it takes to do both, and imho an Instructor MUST master each. We have no room for error here, peoples lives are dependant on it. If a tandem passenger falls out of a harness or a AFFI loses a student, the end result is bad regardless. Skydiving gets a black eye in both instances. So stop complaining and do something about it. I am:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/

As far as the video of BO, I saw it and will not air my thoughts here or Monday quarterback another Instructor. I will say that I learned something and I use what I learned in my Tandem I classes.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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As far as the video of BO, I saw it and will not air my thoughts here or Monday quarterback another Instructor. I will say that I learned something and I use what I learned in my Tandem I classes.

Do you think you might be hypocritical because before you have said

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I am personally seeing lost students, AFFI's not in proper slots to make an effective contribution, cyprus fires, off field landings of students, etc. I personally know of at least 6 that fit the above categories. That is in my small corner of the skydiving world. They were not reported because of embarassment to instructor, DZO, dropzone reputation....they just were debriefed and all moved on. I am speaking about several DZ's not just one by the way. Imagine if there was 6 in every region that was not reported. Thats a lot of students that we are hoping deploy their parachutes or the cyprus works. I am not willing to take the chance any longer. I would like to be proactive for once not reactive. Statistics to me means we are reacting to a problem after it occurs. I have a problem using live students as guinnea pigs to justify making a progression safer. If you look at the list of skydivers who signed the petition or at least are urging USPA to go over som eprocedures they are many AFFI's, S&TA's, and skydivers with well over 10000 jumps. If these are the people saying hey something needs to be looked at then what could the harm possibly be.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[MakeItHappen 15]

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the harness was properly applied.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Being in education, I'd like to offer an idea for discussion. Instructors (AFF or Tandem) are basically teachers. Is it possible that a better way to increase the efficiency and skill of the teachers/instructors is to better prepare them?

To this end, would we be better off focusing our attentions on those few individuals who are responsible for "teaching and certifying the future instructors"?? Maybe it's the Tandem/AFF-I Examiner program that needs revision? It would seem that higher standards held by those certifying the instructors would do more to increase proficiency than any type of increased base requirements? Food for thought.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[kallend 1,672]

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Being in education, I'd like to offer an idea for discussion. Instructors (AFF or Tandem) are basically teachers. Is it possible that a better way to increase the efficiency and skill of the teachers/instructors is to better prepare them?

To this end, would we be better off focusing our attentions on those few individuals who are responsible for "teaching and certifying the future instructors"?? Maybe it's the Tandem/AFF-I Examiner program that needs revision? It would seem that higher standards held by those certifying the instructors would do more to increase proficiency than any type of increased base requirements? Food for thought.

How many professional educators (as opposed to professional skydivers) teach the coach courses? Back in the days of the BIC, the guy who taught the course I took had no teaching credentials whatsoever.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mjosparky 3]

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there is a plethora of opinions and "insights" offered in this thread that are in fact NOT part of the discovery.

We should never be afraid of speaking the truth. Opinions and speculation posted on the internet are just that and not admissible in any court that I know of. I think may you have spent too long living in the cloak and dagger world of BASE.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Para5-0 0]

Hello,
I am trying to follow your thoughts here but I am having difficulty. I see nothing hypocritical about either. I never mentioned instructors names or DZ's. I am seeing a trend that I am not happy with. I have my thoughts about the video and would gladly discuss them with anyone if it was for constructive purpose, but only in PM's. I do not know the TI and do not want to air this out on DZ.com. As far as the second post, I have been extrememly vocal and proactive. If you have several hours to kill, read the "Is AFF too Easy thread". I have been extrememly outspoken and give alternate solutions to my perceived flaws. I have to say 145 people tend to agree with me.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/instructorchanges/
Rather then wine about the process I am trying to initiatle change. I have sent letters to S&T, I have spoken to my RD, I am in the process of getting put on the agenda for Phoenix. How is a guy hypocritical if he is trying to improve a system? I do not believe we ever met but I have to imagine you as a professional do not want to start talking about specific incidents here, or do you? Would that help or just be an assault on certain people.

[mjosparky 3]

This is just for information only. How to you sign a petition anonymously? I counted 11 such signatures.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Para5-0 0]

The administrator has access to all signatures. An anonomous signature just appears when people view the petition. On the signature page you can uncheck the box that says to show your name. Also do not donate any money just x out..

Show my name in the online signature list

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The administrator has access to all signatures. An anonomous signature just appears when people view the petition. On the signature page you can uncheck the box that says to show your name. Also do not donate any money just x out..

Show my name in the online signature list

I am sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. The basic concept of a petition is that it is publicly adding your voice to an address to the authority. An anonymous petition makes no sense at all.

[Para5-0 0]

Andrew,
I agree with you totally, unfortunately it was an option with the dam web site. The list with all names will go to S&T. If someone does not want the general population to see they support it, then I am not sure what else I can do. An example might be a BOD member I guess, but I agree.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I am seeing a trend that I am not happy with.

You need more specific examples when you go to the BOD.
For instance a quote like this describing what a coach is

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...you are permitted to work with students who have progressed far enough along that they can actually take care of themselves and there is no responsibility (emphasis added)

or this quote after stating that there was no difference between the SE tandem course and the USPA tandem course

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Q: What's the point of getting the USPA certificate if you didn't learn anything new and you can't use any other equipment?
A: Just something to have to be able to do tandem progressions. I honestly never use it.

would be telling about the general perception of the NGs getting ratings.

USPA just finished up revamping the CD/IE appointment/rating.
I think the AIC should have been left as a separate course that anyone could take. Not only does it teach you how to teach teachers it has a lot of info on how to teach in general, at least in the form that Laidlaw had organized the course.
I think in a couple of years USPA may backtrack a bit on the IE rating and limit the number of IE for AFF and tandem to enhance quality and standardization. One thing that USPA has done with the AFF standardization meeting is hold it separate from the PIA Symposium and has now started charging $100 for it. This will probably cutout some people, especially the ones overseas.
It's not really the way to do it, but it might work.
Right now, SE limits the number of SE TEs. I don't know if JS or UPT limit the number of TEs they approve.

One argument you can use is that the number of Coach CD/IEs was never limited and that may have lead to certifications of coaches being non-uniform. Maybe that is where the issue is?
OTOH, there have been a lot of Coach CD waivers given based on the 'hardship' issue. The DZ needs some more Coaches and the only way to get them is to waive a requirement or two.

You need to find out if the substandard coaches or instructors are coming from specific IEs or IEs that had some requirements waived or for some other reason.
That 'conditional AFF' rating would be a good example.

I've attended AFFCC from Sitter (when I got my rating), Yarhling, Horn and Stokes. I was an evaluator for Sitter and Yahrling.
I was just sitting in on Horn's and Stokes' classes.
I'd rate the courses in this order: Sitter, Horn, Yarhling and a much distant 4th Stokes.
I hope that Jay has changed his presentation since I sat in on it.

As I mentioned on the other thread, showing eval jumps to a group of IEs and asking them to grade the dive & compare to what happened in a course would go a long way to help standardization. But you'll be walking on eggshells when you do that. If you did that at a presentation to the S&T Comm or BOD your audience might be in the dives that you show.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[kallend 1,672]

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I think the AIC should have been left as a separate course that anyone could take. Not only does it teach you how to teach teachers it has a lot of info on how to teach in general, at least in the form that Laidlaw had organized the course.

What are the teaching credentials of the individuals who are teaching how to teach in just a few hours?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NovaTTT 1]

Jan, you said:

The harness that MG put on Bo was not properly fastened. The video clearly shows Bo slung very low and partially out of the harness before exit.

Do you have a copy of or a link to the vid? PM if you like.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Fetishom 0]

All this is a clear example how law is fucked up in USA. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. I wonder how a normal person can drive a car without suing everybody for his/her stupid mistakes.
If I plant a screwdriver in my head, I can certainly sue the maker of such screwdriver because he didn't provide misuse of the screwdriver, based on such logic.
Please law people, grow up....

Serge Dufour

[kallend 1,672]

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All this is a clear example how law is fucked up in USA. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. I wonder how a normal person can drive a car without suing everybody for his/her stupid mistakes.
If I plant a screwdriver in my head, I can certainly sue the maker of such screwdriver because he didn't provide misuse of the screwdriver, based on such logic.
Please law people, grow up....

Why would you expect a lawyer to understand that when his income depends on not understanding?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

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What are the teaching credentials of the individuals who are teaching how to teach in just a few hours?

A-there are -far- more people with ridiculously impressive credentials to teach that can't teach for shit.

B-Passion coupled with a deep understanding of a non-complex subject may easily take the place of a lack of classroom experience and "paper" credential.

In the real world (in many applications), those that can't do, teach. In the skydiving world, one has to first prove they can do (outside of a vacuum) before they're allowed to teach.

I'm sure everyone can think of some terrible skydivers with phenomenal teaching credentials that they wouldn't ever want to see training a student.

[Andy9o8 0]

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In the real world (in many applications), those that can't do, teach.

Actually, some popular slogans are crocks of shit. For the most part, that's one of them.

[kallend 1,672]

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What are the teaching credentials of the individuals who are teaching how to teach in just a few hours?

A-there are -far- more people with ridiculously impressive credentials to teach that can't teach for shit.

B-Passion coupled with a deep understanding of a non-complex subject may easily take the place of a lack of classroom experience and "paper" credential.

In the real world (in many applications), those that can't do, teach. In the skydiving world, one has to first prove they can do (outside of a vacuum) before they're allowed to teach.

I'm sure everyone can think of some terrible skydivers with phenomenal teaching credentials that they wouldn't ever want to see training a student.

Nice rant.

Sounds like an admission that they don't have any despite all the rhetoric about the importance of teaching.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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What are the teaching credentials of the individuals who are teaching how to teach in just a few hours?

The question begs itself; what are the teaching credentials of the majority of those teaching our youths at post-secondary institutions?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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A-there are -far- more people with ridiculously impressive credentials to teach that can't teach for shit.

Unfortunately, that's true in some limited cases, I think you'll find a ton of research that'll show there are good teaching methods and bad.

B-Passion coupled with a deep understanding of a non-complex subject may easily take the place of a lack of classroom experience and "paper" credential.

Agreed!! But being good at something, even if you're extreamely passonate about it, is far different than teaching it. And, in what way is skydiving non-complex??

In my previous post, I did NOT mean to insinuate that only "teachers" should instruct skydivers. I would much rather see the experienced, passonate skydiver do that. What I was trying to point out is simply that to change the system, it may be a better strategy to make changes at the top thru the IE's.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[kallend 1,672]

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What are the teaching credentials of the individuals who are teaching how to teach in just a few hours?

The question begs itself; what are the teaching credentials of the majority of those teaching our youths at post-secondary institutions?

How so? It has no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

I do know that when I took the BIC, the course director had no teaching credentials at all, yet he was (supposedly) teaching instructional pedagogy.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.