chrisgr 0 #26 January 11, 2005 Do you think that experienced jumpers and instructors can instill the necessary attitudes about canopy training in each new jumper's mind when they enter into the sport. Why hasn't this already happened? We are currently living the dream of no regulations and freedom to do as we please. I hope you have been enjoying yourself as others have perished. I am very much aware of the dangers of this sport. That is why I am concerned about our lack of standardized canopy training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bartje 0 #27 January 11, 2005 QuoteDo you think that experienced jumpers and instructors can instill the necessary attitudes about canopy training in each new jumper's mind when they enter into the sport. As an instructor you need a basic knowledge from the human mind to judge your student. There is not enaough attention at this point during the instructor course. That would make things already safer. QuoteWe are currently living the dream of no regulations and freedom to do as we please. I hope you have been enjoying yourself as others have perished. The basic rules in skydiving ar ok, when you start doing things the extreem way, like canopy flying or learning it, ypu have to know that it is never safe. Everythin out the extraordenary is not 100%safe and will never be no mater how many rules you make. QuoteI am very much aware of the dangers of this sport. That is why I am concerned about our lack of standardized canopy training. Thats a good thing that you are aware, make shure that the others are as well. The program you showed is a good program for me, I will use it for sure as a guideline and I hope others do as well. A FreeFly Gypsy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,772 #28 January 11, 2005 >It will be done through talking to each other at the DZs . . . No it won't. It hasn't been. >education and advanced coaching. I agree there, but less than 10% of skydivers will avail themselves of such optional education unless there is some incentive to do so. The problem is not that Loic should be stopped. People like Loic and Greg Gasson and Luigi and Chris Martin know the risks they are taking. They may die in the process, but they are aware of how close they are pushing the envelope. The issue is that there are a whole generation of jumpers who simply have no idea of the risks they are taking. Do we let people with one tandem do solo jumps? Why not? Is it because we feel that people should not be allowed to take risks in this sport, or because we don't believe in personal freedom? No, it's because someone with one tandem doesn't just not know much, he doesn't even know what he doesn't know. "Just jump and pull the string, right? How hard can that be?" Even the most rabid personal-freedom activist would likely see some value in requiring the guy to take a course of instruction before he jumps on his own. I see high performance canopies the same way. There are people with 200 jumps jumping 2:1 ellipticals who don't know jack shit about flying them. They are careening into landing areas yelling "look out! Get out of the way!" and bouncing to a stop. Their criteria for advancement is that they haven't died yet. It is as irresponsible to let these people jump as it is to let the guy with one tandem do a solo. The problem is that every DZO in the country knows not to let the guy with one tandem do a solo, unless they use very clever lies and forgeries to get past the screening process. You don't even need to lie to get on an Otter with a canopy you can't land. That's the problem. It's not an issue of personal responsibility so much as it is an issue of knowledge. To take responsibility for yourself you have to know what you're taking responsibility _for_, and many of these people don't even know that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #29 January 11, 2005 QuoteI am concerned about our lack of standardized canopy training. I am not against standardized canopy training. In fact I am all for it. But I am against the USPA telling me what I can and can't do, what I can jump and what I can't jump. Yes seeing someone with only a couple of hundred jumps (and no training) under a highly loaded elliptical canopy is wrong. But instead of blindly trying to hold back the jumper telling them that they can't jump a certain canopy I am all for: 1) Educating the jumper in knowing their limits. 2) Educating the jumper in aerodynamics. 3) Educating the jumper in basic canopy control. 4) Educating the jumper in high performance canopy control. 5) Getting the jumper to dedicate jumps towards canopy control (too much emphasis on freefall these days). So I don't think we're all that different in our opinions on getting people to understand how to fly their caopies. We just differ on our opinions as to who's responsible for the jumper. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bartje 0 #30 January 11, 2005 QuoteI am not against standardized canopy training. In fact I am all for it. But I am against the USPA telling me what I can and can't do, what I can jump and what I can't jump. Yes seeing someone with only a couple of hundred jumps (and no training) under a highly loaded elliptical canopy is wrong. But instead of blindly trying to hold back the jumper telling them that they can't jump a certain canopy I am all for: 1) Educating the jumper in knowing their limits. 2) Educating the jumper in aerodynamics. 3) Educating the jumper in basic canopy control. 4) Educating the jumper in high performance canopy control. 5) Getting the jumper to dedicate jumps towards canopy control (too much emphasis on freefall these days). So I don't think we're all that different in our opinions on getting people to understand how to fly their caopies. We just differ on our opinions as to who's responsible for the jumper. Amen A FreeFly Gypsy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Springbock 0 #31 January 11, 2005 Jump Numbers do not say a thing! I jumped 2 Weeks agao a two way belly with a Guy with 300 Jumps. He was not able to stabilize himself the first 3000 feet. I jumped with a girl having 140 Jumps, and she was much better doing than I with more than 300. I think watching out what are your Friends on your DZ doing is more important, as I know that my Friends looking after me. Ups, is that a white canopy above me? Take care up there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #32 January 11, 2005 "Jump Numbers do not say a thing!" I disagree. Jump #s indicate both a survival of X number of jumps and more importantly the inplied additional knowdledge and experience that each successful skydive provides. Saying someone with 300 jumps can't get stable, versus a 140 jumper that can, is completely arbitrary to your perception/opinion. Who's to say that on the other 299 jumps there was not a vast increase in jump performance. Is anyone not prone to a bad jump, unreflective of their relative skill level? Or, could the 140 jump jumper simply have been lucky on that one? I don't know, point is you don't either, you can't assess someone's ability and conpetency in this sport by observing a single jump. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Springbock 0 #33 January 11, 2005 We are not that far away as you might think, I agree that observing a single Jump does not reflect ones skill. So doesn't the number of Jumps survived, maybe some of those were simply luck? Ups, is that a white canopy above me? Take care up there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #34 January 11, 2005 I'll agree there exists terrible skydivers with 1000s of jumps, and that simply having alot of jumps does not make someone a safe skydiver. What jump #s do signify though, for most jumpers (there are of course exceptions to everything I understand), is that there exists a better competence and understanding of ones limits the more jumps that we make. The difference? A skydiver that sucks at 1000 jumps probably knows he sucks and accomidates for the lack of ability with increased common sense, where as a 100 jump jumper that sucks, mostlikely has no perception of thier lack of competency. Simply put the more jumps you make, the better understanding you have of your limits and abilities, which allows you to make more effective decisions on things like canopy choice or camera flying. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #35 January 11, 2005 QuoteI think watching out what are your Friends on your DZ doing is more important, as I know that my Friends looking after me. Wow! ...Now if only you would both RECOGNIZE and HEAD your own words! Otherwise, this is one of the MOST HYPOCRITICAL statements I have seen on here in a long time; Considering (and correct me if I am wrong) you are the same guy who has posted in another thread that at 300 total (+/- a few jumps) you are also already jumping a Stiletto 135 at greater than a 1.5-1 wing loading. ---Are you that same guy? I don't care how sharp you THINK your learning curve or abilities are... please tell me how you also think THAT constitutes your friends supposedly also "watching out for you"?? I really, really hope that if you do not otherwise from just our "word of mouth" (postings -and I'm sorry if it seems I am "harassing" you) somehow WAKE UP and reconsider this more thoroughly, that you also end up as becoming one of the LUCKY ones. What I mean by that is to say that you don't have to find out you were wrong, by what you clearly don't KNOW (or appreciate) becoming a teacher to you by personal experience. ie: the hard way... JMO (observation), -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #36 January 12, 2005 I kinda like the ethos we have here in the UK Its actually quite difficult to start doing 'silly stuff' without having to go through the CCI or Senior person on the DZ first.... Maybe its because the DZ's are a little smaller and so its all a little tighter.....but peopel trying to do stuff thats just way outta bounds for whatver reason have to take it through the CCI first.... It can kinda drive you nuts if you have an ogre in that position or when you are hungry to progress.......but sub 200 jumpers flying highly loaded ellipticals???......tell me if I am wrong here people but theres just no chance of that happening in our DZ culture Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeffallen 0 #37 January 12, 2005 This weekend I am going to borrow a friends Velocity 79, with my new camera helmet, participate in a five way head down jump, do a 270 front riser turn and swoop my ass off. Who can stop me? Why should they? I have 498 succesful jumps? I have a license. I can do this. Who will keep me from getting on the plane? I have read responses from my original post that each individual can keep themselves safe and regulate themselves, this is simply not true. The USPA is our governing body as far as I know, the SIMs, and BSR is only a guideline to follow, lets not give the government any more reasons to regulate us, and set RULES. we can and need to take care of each other, It only looks "cool" until someone gets hurt or killed. It can be a safer sport. Just my opinion, Jeff By the way, I have no intentions of flying anything smaller than a 150 anytime soon, just trying to make a point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyexis 0 #38 June 25, 2005 SO???? ......... coming back 2 the are you ready to do camera flying.... how many jumps would be the "ok" number to start doing videos??? I´m starting to fly with my instructor with he´s tandem... I do not take camera, but the practice is as if I where.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #39 June 25, 2005 Look in the video fourm, reccommended number is at least 200.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #40 June 27, 2005 Personally, just thinking of you "flying with a tandem" at just your number of jumps alone (with or even without camera) scares the living be-jeezus out of me. No slight or insult at all to you individually, but a tandem is NOT just "another skydive", and a sub (I'll say) 300-jump wonder being there WITH one, just brings up way to many visions in my mind of things that can go (horribly) WRONG. Patience is a virtue. Please, learn how to skydive much more comprehensively than just 70-jumps +/- might be worth. No matter how "good" you are (or THINK you are), at JUST that raw #, I really don't care who you are ...there are just way too many things you don't even know yet, that you just DON'T know. Please re-think about this! -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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