Jumping with video camera, are you ready?

[jeffallen 0]

Under 500 jumps? Ready to buy a video camera and mount it to your helmet and shoot video? You may want to wait a little longer to do so. Just wanted to pass along my expeiance for saftey reasons.
29 months in the sport, 498 safe skydives other than a few out landings, I consider myself to be very observant and safe. I did six jumps this weekend with my new camera helmet setup. The point of this post is to share that having a camera can and will make you focus on the camera more and focus less on saftey issues, inside and ouside of the aircraft. No matter how much I tried forgetting about the camera an my head, i could not do it. It is a major distraction to include in a already distracting enviroment. I see a lot of people with very low jump numbers jumping cameras these days. Just because you can afford it, you should also make sure it is the right time. By the way, I have some nice video of blue sky, earth, and the occasional skydiver that happened to get into the frame. Just my opinion, be safe out there, Jeff

[Lozza 0]

Thanks for the advice/heads up Jeff. Not that I'm looking at getting a camera at this stage, or any time soon. I don't really need one anyway, with 7 others at my small home DZ flying a camera, (95% of the sports skydivers,) I see heaps of myself on film, it's great. Probably far to hard filming myself anyway....

Lozza.

[Bartje 0]

Jeff,
if you do your first jump, first camerajump or even first tandemsjump as a tandemmaster, it stay's the first and you always be occupied buy something else than your jump when you are in the plane.
You always need a minimum jumps to do something extra during freeFall.
I did hear o story a few years ago from a very experiend skydiver who had buy himselve a new camera. He was oing back to back and his gear was ready at the airplane. He simply forgot to put on his gear because he was occupied with his new toy and yes, he did jump without his parachute.
Have fun and keep it safe.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[chrisgr 0]

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You always need a minimum jumps to do something extra

Why not apply that logic to canopy progression?

[Bartje 0]

In canopy your are not occupied with this extra thing and I'm sure that there are skydivers faster ready to jump with a camera before 500 jumps.
Canopy piloting is much differant than jumping with a camera but I'm shure you know that.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[chrisgr 0]

My point to you was this ...


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1383263#1383263


Canopy progression requires experience.

[Bartje 0]

Yep, my point as well.
Camera or Canopy, there will always people faster or slower ready than other.
Skydiving is not an ordinary sport, I know, but I'm afraid that there are coming too much rules so that instructors do not take any responsibility any more.
where is the personal input in this generation instructors? Do they need those rules or are they to fast an instructor, can you jump a camera with less than 500 jumps? Can you do a wingsuit jump with less than 500 jumps (or 200 when you have coaching)?
The main thing is that you have to realize that you doing something extra ordinary and common sense, from the instructor and student is sometimes even important than number of jumps.
What I like in AFF is the fact that the instructor has to give as many freedom as possible to the student when they are in progression. It is the instructors who has to know the skills from the student as his own skills to make this possible.
This freedom in progression seems to be stopped when you talk about camera, canopy, wingsuit, ...

A FreeFly Gypsy

[chrisgr 0]

We have statistics that prove that there is a problem -- the current system does not work.

As much as you may want instructors to know every student’s skills and watch them accordingly, we still have many students who do not receive such attention …


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1326963#1326963


Why are we allowing any student to suffer from this lack of training?

If we cannot provide a safer environment under our current system, then the system must be changed.

[Bartje 0]

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We have statistics that prove that there is a problem -- the current system does not work.

Statistics do not often give source of the problem but there is a problem, thats for sure.

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Why are we allowing any student to suffer from this lack of training?

Is it not a good idea to start with the instructor training?

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If we cannot provide a safer environment under our current system, then the system must be changed.

I'm 100% with you.

As an instructor you have to look who you have in front of you when they asking to jump with a camera or doing something else.

Like I said before, if there are rules necessary, keep them as simple as possible.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[LawnDart21 0]

Some people in this sport (canopy or camera progression) only adhere to restrictions, regulations or advice if it suits them to. If they want to do something outside of a suggested parameter, they will do whether it is recommmend or not. Or they will keep asking the question until they get the answer they are looking for.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[jeffallen 0]

My original post was focused on just the camera part, but I do agree there are a lot af skydivers that are progressing a little too fast for their own good not only camera flying, but downsizing their canopies as well, high performance landings, etc. In my short time in this sport, I have had three good friends hurt themselves to the point they may not ever be right again. I AM NOT in favor at all for some "bigger power" to come in and regulate our sport for us when I know we can police ouselves. DZO's, instructors, and fellow jumpers should be able to help each other when we decide to take it to the next level. We all progress at differant speeds in skydiving, but each individual should be able to evaluate his/her own abilities with a few general guidelines/ rules, whatever you wish to call them. We need to take care of ourselves a little more, or I am afraid someone else will step in and do it for us. Just my opinion, Jeff

[Bartje 0]

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My original post was focused on just the camera part, but I do agree there are a lot af skydivers that are progressing a little too fast for their own good not only camera flying, but downsizing their canopies as well, high performance landings, etc. In my short time in this sport, I have had three good friends hurt themselves to the point they may not ever be right again. I AM NOT in favor at all for some "bigger power" to come in and regulate our sport for us when I know we can police ouselves. DZO's, instructors, and fellow jumpers should be able to help each other when we decide to take it to the next level. We all progress at differant speeds in skydiving, but each individual should be able to evaluate his/her own abilities with a few general guidelines/ rules, whatever you wish to call them. We need to take care of ourselves a little more, or I am afraid someone else will step in and do it for us. Just my opinion, Jeff

I do agree with that,
We need guidelines and not rules in our sport.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Lozza 0]

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My original post was focused on just the camera part, but I do agree there are a lot of skydivers that are progressing a little too fast for their own good not only camera flying, but downsizing their canopies as well, high performance landings, etc. In my short time in this sport, I have had three good friends hurt themselves to the point they may not ever be right again. I AM NOT in favor at all for some "bigger power" to come in and regulate our sport for us when I know we can police ourselves. DZO's, instructors, and fellow jumpers should be able to help each other when we decide to take it to the next level. We all progress at different speeds in skydiving, but each individual should be able to evaluate his/her own abilities with a few general guidelines/ rules, whatever you wish to call them. We need to take care of ourselves a little more, or I am afraid someone else will step in and do it for us. Just my opinion, Jeff

I also agree, and I would like to add the number of jumps shouldn't reflect one ability as much as I've heard at DZ's and read. Not wanting to start a massive debate or a word war but I have jumped with people with far higher jump #s and their skill is nothing fantastic, in saying that low jump #s good skill. Like Jeff said, We all progress at different speeds, not just in jump numbers but in overall skill as well. I understand the number of jumps you do reflects your skydiving experience but maybe not your skill. Just a thought.

Lozza.

[chrisgr 0]

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we can police ourselves

That is wrong. We have proven that we cannot properly 'police ourselves' -- or our fellow jumpers.

Besides, the 'bigger power' is our USPA (or other elected governing body) and the progression rule would simply be part of a more thorough canopy flight education program.

[chrisgr 0]

Who is going to adhere to your 'guidelines'?

Looking at different DZ's, you will find inconsistent training programs and execution. How are 'guidelines' going to be consistently applied to help the current safety problem?

[Bartje 0]

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Who is going to adhere to your 'guidelines'?

Looking at different DZ's, you will find inconsistent training programs and execution. How are 'guidelines' going to be consistently applied to help the current safety problem?

There is a big differance between a canopy course and canopy guidelines.
When you have rules than there will always be rebels who want to do more and are looking for a dz where they can jump the canopy they want to jump. Accidents will happen when they do jump without guidance.
Safety start with the instructor, there should be more attention given to the instructors course than what is now.

Safety for me is make sure that your student flies safe. The standard for this can be guidelines. When an instructor is well formed and has the capability for making a good judgement you can still take the guidelines but make your own interpretation (as an instructor)
For example, a student who does fly a canopy what is not ok with the chart and he still wants to fly it I prefer to look for a solution and not tell him he can not jump the canopy. Perhaps he, or she, shall have to do some jumps with an other canopy to prove he can fly safe but the goal has to be that he, or she, can jump finaly the canopy.
You can not stop all accidents but shutting out those people will not drop the number off accidents, they will make the number only higher, especially when they jump without guidance.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[riggerrob 558]

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Some people in this sport (canopy or camera progression) only adhere to restrictions, regulations or advice if it suits them to. If they want to do something outside of a suggested parameter, they will do whether it is recommmend or not. Or they will keep asking the question until they get the answer they are looking for.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well said!

For example, only the Australian Parachute Federation has published guidelines for using hand-mounted video, but if I try to quote Australian guidelines to Canadians, they argue "But that is not LAW in Canada."
To which I reply: "APF guidelines may not be the law, but they represent good business practice and may keep you alive."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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That is wrong. We have proven that we cannot properly 'police ourselves' -- or our fellow jumpers.

Besides, the 'bigger power' is our USPA (or other elected governing body) and the progression rule would simply be part of a more thorough canopy flight education program.

Do you honestly believe that some governing power will protect people? I guess you're also a big fan of BIG government. #### the USPA I say. They don't know what's good for me. I know what I can and can't do and I know what my limits are. Sure up and coming jumpers need guidance and education and once in a while someone needs to try to hold one of them back from killing themselves. But that's not going to be done through some legislative power. It will be done through talking to each other at the DZs, education and advanced coaching. Jumping is a hazardous activity which anyone of us can be seriously injured or killed on any given jump regardless of experience or skill. Obviously those who push their limits are more likely to become a statistic. But these are the risks we must accept and assume as individual jumpers. And if we don't know that each and every one of us can be hurt or killed on our next jump and have accepted these risks, then we have no business getting on that airplane or exiting from that exit point on a BASE jump.

In the five years that you've been in the sport, haven't you even noticed that you yourself have been known to take more risks by jumping a more high performance canopy, by making a more high performance landing approach or by trying some riskier jump? This is what we as individuals do as we progress in our skill set and experience levels and it's what helps the evolution of human flight. Of course blindly taking risks without training and guidance is a problem. But it's a problem that each individual jumper must recognize and the sooner we get into people's minds to seek training and advanced coaching on their own, the better off we will be.

Next risks for me in the not too distant future ... to start flying a cross-braced canopy soon, very soon. To start doing gainers at the birdge in Potato Land and one day once I gain more terminal BASE experience at some local tall "A"s, huck myself off of a cliff with a wingsuit. Now if I relied on the USPA to tell me what to do, I'd never do any of these things.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chrisgr 0]

You have suggested that you would not follow your own guidelines in some situations. If so ... what is the point of your guidelines?

Show me how your guidelines will be interpreted and followed by other instructors and DZ's.

Show me how you would ensure that every instructor follows your guidelines to make a new, standardized canopy flight program consistent -- across all DZ's.

You are absolutely right that there is a big difference between a canopy course and canopy guidelines. We need a new canopy flight program that is a mandated part of student training AND we need a restriction on w/l canopy progression. They are very different ... but they should implemented together to help protect our fellow jumpers.

I do not think that you are really serious about protecting the safety of fellow jumpers. If you were, you would not wait for jumpers to come to you with their questions or desires for more training.

If you REALLY care for the safety of all jumpers, you would insist on a standardized canopy flight training for EVERYBODY as they are learning to jump. If you REALLY care for the safety of all jumpers, you would insist on a restriction for canopy w/l progression.

[chrisgr 0]

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It will be done through talking to each other at the DZs, education and advanced coaching.

These things are all available now. Why do we still have so many injuries and deaths that could have been avoided?

The answer is because the education and advanced coaching is not available or provided to everyone. This type of training is needed by everybody as they learn to jump.

Why aren't you insisting that everyone get this necessary training?

[chrisgr 0]

More evidence why 'guidelines' are worthless.

[Bartje 0]

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You have suggested that you would not follow your own guidelines in some situations. If so ... what is the point of your guidelines?

I never talked about my guidelines. I did said that the chart is good as a guideline but you have to see at the jumper who is in front of you asking questions.

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Show me how you would ensure that every instructor follows your guidelines to make a new, standardized canopy flight program consistent -- across all DZ's.

You can never make a standard guideline. Therefore it is called guideline and not caled rule.

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We need a new canopy flight program that is a mandated part of student training AND we need a restriction on w/l canopy progression. They are very different ... but they should implemented together to help protect our fellow jumpers.

The program you showed me before is a good program. I can work with it and it makes a good guideline for me.

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I do not think that you are really serious about protecting the safety of fellow jumpers. If you were, you would not wait for jumpers to come to you with their questions or desires for more training.

Safety is in between your ears. You can not put safety for 100% in a rule or guideline. Safety starts with the instructor and he has to bring it over to the student.

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If you REALLY care for the safety of all jumpers, you would insist on a standardized canopy flight training for EVERYBODY as they are learning to jump. If you REALLY care for the safety of all jumpers, you would insist on a restriction for canopy w/l progression.

When you trying to say for me that I'm not care for students you are wrong. Even the wl chart has his limits as a guideline. Speed is something in between the ears as well. I'm much more at ease when a student understands his canopy and perhaps jumps with a wl higher than what the chart says then a student with a wl recommended at the chart bud does not understand his canopy.
We do have a different view at this subject.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Why aren't you insisting that everyone get this necessary training?

Didn't I just mention that I feel it is the responsibility of each person to seek their own training. The part that experienced jumpers and instructors need to do is to instill this need in each new jumpers mind when they enter into the sport.

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Why do we still have so many injuries and deaths that could have been avoided?

You're living in a pipe dream and don't seem to understand the dangers of this sport if you think the USPA can make it safe (because it will never be a safe sport). The only thing that will make us more capable of managing our own risks is to take responsibility for seeking our own training and knowning our own limits. The USPA is going to do jack shit in terms of making me do this.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[LawnDart21 0]

Thank you.

The other version of that concept I came up with over the last few years through personal observation is this:

The only thing that will stop the stupid is the ground.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Bartje 0]

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More evidence why 'guidelines' are worthless.

Do not take it out the context.
In Australia it works this guideline, in Canada not because they have an other atitude.
Safety starts with yourself and you have to bring it over to others. Safety is between your ears.
You can make rules and guidelines as much as you want, if they are kept aside you never can make things safer.

A FreeFly Gypsy