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npgraphicdesign

Jumping with a small banner tomorrow.

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About 3x2.5 feet, made of nylon, double layers of binding tape on sides and bottom, loop handles made from the same binding tape on the two bottom corners. Front has a message on it that will be videoed and photographed Exiting from a 182.

Any thoughts/suggestions on exit, keeping it steady, etc.? I know it'll be more useful to talk to someone in person, which I will tomorrow, but looking for some input from folks who have done it.

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Did you do any reinforcement to the middle or body of the Banner? How big are the loops for your hands?

Have you researched how to roll and exit with the banner as well as its deployment in freefall?

Since this is a relatively small banner, flag shaped, then the following technique may work.

Roll the flag down to the bottom edge, once you have the roll, take two rubber bands (news paper type not packing bands) and place them around the roll in the middle about a foot apart. GEAR UP. Get a gear check. Place your hands through the loops so that the loops pass through your palms and exit your hands between thumb and forefinger. This will allow you to control the roll with two fingers from each hand and the loops.

For the exit have the videoagrapher climb out and you on one knee move to the door, near the door bring the roll to your chest if small enough to control or behind your neck (this is used for larger freefall banners pretty successfully), if the banner unrolls behind you on exit it is just premature but not a danger (provided you exited stable). If it unrolls on your chest this should be small enough to clear easily buy placing your arms "up" dragging the material away from you and into the right position.

A diving exit is pretty simple, use a verbal count and dive at the clear air space to the Videoagrapher's left, under the tails edge.

As soon as your stable extend your arms into position, once extended let the corners go as you hold the loops. The air will do the rest. The corners will start to catch air and unroll the drag will be enough to break the two small rubber bands as they are pretty thin.

It will be a bit flappy and rough, but not too bad. You will get a bit of a work out.

Plan to open high, 3-3.5k should be good. At break off the camera should back up, and at deployment alt you need to release the right loop and deploy, be vigorous with the throw out.

Be ready to let the flag go if your entangled. If the flag is entangled go through your normal EP Progressions.

If not, and all opens then stuff the flag into your suit and fly safe to a smooth landing.

Another option is to let the flag go and hope it lands on the DZ. Not a good option if it is needed for a post dive Photo Op.

But above all know when to say "No"!

Be safe.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Here's the way "I" would do it. I would roll the banner from the end down to the handle. I would then have a vid/still person on the far end of the strut and climb out onto the step with the rolled banner in hand. Then I would let go of the rolled portion of the banner, have the vidiot shoot a few pics and then exit.

The biggest thing I would do is make damn sure that banner is in my left hand come pull time. You may also have line twist's in which the banner gets caught up (happened to me once jumping a streamer). That really isn't a "problem" so long as you can get out of the twist's easily (ie. your parachute isn't turning and diving rapidly).

Have fun. Be safe, and get advice from some ff'ers at your dz that have done tube jumps before.
Muff #5048

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Here's the way "I" would do it. I would roll the banner from the end down to the handleI guess this is good for a long banner, but I did not understand that to be the design in the OP. I would then have a vid/still person on the far end of the strut and climb out onto the step with the rolled banner in hand. Then I would let go of the rolled portion of the banner, have the vidiot shoot a few pics and then exit.
I would not advise this when jumping from a C-182. Well any plane really. The banner has the same ability to become a hazard to the plane as a canopy.

The biggest thing I would do is make damn sure that banner is in my left hand come pull time. You may also have line twist's in which the banner gets caught up (happened to me once jumping a streamer). That really isn't a "problem" so long as you can get out of the twist's easily (ie. your parachute isn't turning and diving rapidly).

Have fun. Be safe, and get advice from some ff'ers at your dz that have done tube jumps before.



Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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If you look at the dimensions It doesn't matter if he's only holding it by one corner. It aint gonna reach the tail. From a logistical standpoint, I just dont see how a banner of this size would adversely affect the a/c. As far as a hazard to the canopy; well watch a few tube jumpers on deployment (tubes are WAY longer and bigger than the banner he described).
Muff #5048

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Its not that it will reach the tail while holding it, its the possibility of accidentally releasing it in the door with no grip on it and then the material getting caught in the flight surfaces.

Honestly on a "banner" this size its FAR easier to just get a piece of Foamboard, cut handle holes in it and jump it. Then just release it and pick it up off the ground. Then it if accidentally released in the door it will just bounce off the tail surfaces and its not going to jam in them.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Its not that it will reach the tail while holding it, its the possibility of accidentally releasing it in the door with no grip on it and then the material getting caught in the flight surfaces.

Honestly on a "banner" this size its FAR easier to just get a piece of Foamboard, cut handle holes in it and jump it. Then just release it and pick it up off the ground. Then it if accidentally released in the door it will just bounce off the tail surfaces and its not going to jam in them.



IMHO, You're putting WAY too much thought into this. A bit of plastic/nylon covering the a/c control surfaces wouldn't make any difference in this case.

If you would like to prove me wrong, then please link an article where someone flying z 3'x2 1/2' banner brought down an airplane. If you cant do this than my opinion still stands.
Muff #5048

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Previous posters have told you how to do it -

I am hoping that you have discussed the safety aspect of this jump with others who have just a little more experience than you. There are things that can go wrong because of your rigging and it's a good idea to know these before you jump.
Dano

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I've got one other suggestion to add. Before you get on the plane, take some photos with your banner in front of the plane. I've seem a couple of pretty funny banner jumps and the banner will probably never look that nice again. One banner tore right off the rope and another accordion-ed up the rope. Pretty funny video watching my husband try to stretch the banner out in freefall. Take photos first.

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If you look at the dimensions It doesn't matter if he's only holding it by one corner. It aint gonna reach the tail. From a logistical standpoint, I just dont see how a banner of this size would adversely affect the a/c. As far as a hazard to the canopy; well watch a few tube jumpers on deployment (tubes are WAY longer and bigger than the banner he described).



Maybe a Pilot can address the issue of the air floe being potentially disturbed over the tail with a Viedoagrapher on the strut.

I do not think I am "over thinking" this, but you may be "Under thinking" this.

I have only jumped the banner style described a dozen-ish times, so I may have just been lucky, a lot. But it is how I was taught buy folks who have done it hundreds of time sand do it a dozen times a year still.

What ever technique the OP uses (by now used I think), I hope he had the Pilot in on it and got advice from experienced Banner Flyers at the DZ.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I made several banner jumps in the 90's to announce my kids' births. The banners were all made with the help of my riggers according to instructions provided in an article in the December 1989 PARACHUTIST.

(Note - I assisted on a few other banner jumps which featured homemade banners that were not built according to these instructions. They didn't work.)

I used F-111 cut into a slight trapezoid shape, about 3' wide at the bottom, with a reinforcing seam a few inches from the top. This allowed the top portion to vibrate & shred a bit, while the main part with the message flew wide open & stable.

A nylon cord was sewn along the bottom seam, with a loop through which the left (reserve) hand is inserted (just four fingers, not the entire hand!) for a solid grip, and a knot tied at the other end for the right hand.

Fit the banner over the left hand, then stuff the material into your hand with the knotted end of the cord hanging out. The whole thing fits very snugly inside your hand. Once in freefall just grab the knotted end & pull it out as straight as you can. The banner is flying very nicely. You may wish you had a photo, so be sure to arrange for a video guy to join you.

At pull time, let the banner streamer behind you at arm's length while you deploy the main. Piece of cake. In the event of an emergency, just let it slip off your left hand and save your life. Planning for a high pull might be a good idea, but probably isn't all that necessary if you have enough experience to be fussing with a banner in the first place.

You know how we exit with our arms out & hands wide open? Hold the fist closed until you're ready to deploy the banner. You're on video - don't mess up!

Cheers,
Jon S.

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I'm not an expert at this stuff but doesn't anyone see a problem with having loop handles rather than a strap with a know at the end?

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loop handles made from the same binding tape on the two bottom corners.



If they are made over sized they slip off real easy, and are easy to hang on too in freefall.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I'm not an expert at this stuff but doesn't anyone see a problem with having loop handles rather than a strap with a know at the end?

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loop handles made from the same binding tape on the two bottom corners.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The article I sited offered some specific measurements. Easy enough to slip three or four fingers through for a secure grip, yet loose enough to discard easily. I made five jumps with this arrangement and they all worked out as planned. If I'd opened up my hand it would have slipped off very quickly.

Cheers,
Jon

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It's too dangerous...yer gonna die ;)



I guess I'm posting this from the underworld :P

So, it went great...I'm shocked that it only took one try! Thanks to Doug for making this a 2 way and helping me with holding the banner..and thanks to Dave the awesome videographer who filmed it. Here's how we did it, for those that are interested...

1. I rolled up the banner in my right hand, grasped the loop on my side of the banner (left side of the banner if you're looking at the front of it) and left the other loop dangling.
2. Dave (video guy) climbed out first, then myself, then Doug.
3. As soon as we left, Doug grabbed my left hand with his left, grabbed the loop on his side, and then I let go of the banner, which made it unroll automatically. He said I even let it go too soon ;)
4. We held it until about 5k, with some side to side/up down movements, but wad fairly steady.
5. At 5k, he let go of his side and it stayed as a streamer in my hand. I pulled, and the banner (as I saw on video) came somewhat close to the lines, but not close enough to wrap around them, which was the main worry. Then I stuffed it into my jumpsuit and landed...sliding in on my arse. :ph34r:

All in all, it went great. Will post a few photos later. Thanks to all for suggestions, as they did help when we were discussing options.

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Its not that it will reach the tail while holding it, its the possibility of accidentally releasing it in the door with no grip on it and then the material getting caught in the flight surfaces.

Honestly on a "banner" this size its FAR easier to just get a piece of Foamboard, cut handle holes in it and jump it. Then just release it and pick it up off the ground. Then it if accidentally released in the door it will just bounce off the tail surfaces and its not going to jam in them.



IMHO, You're putting WAY too much thought into this. A bit of plastic/nylon covering the a/c control surfaces wouldn't make any difference in this case.

If you would like to prove me wrong, then please link an article where someone flying z 3'x2 1/2' banner brought down an airplane. If you cant do this than my opinion still stands.



When you are doing “stunt” skydive there is no such thing as “too much thought”. Taking any skydive lightly is a good way to end up dead. And I don’t have to prove you wrong to know you are wrong. Your caviler attitude is not a problem until it affects other people like the pilot or his airplane.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I'm not an expert at this stuff but doesn't anyone see a problem with having loop handles rather than a strap with a know at the end?



If they are made over sized they slip off real easy, and are easy to hang on too in freefall.



Unless they somehow get twisted up and trap your hand(s). I saw that happen a few years ago. Resulted in a reserve ride, and a bloody, mangled hand that looked quite painful.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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That's exactly what I was thinking of.

Premature release of one side,
Banner twists up,
Loop handle becomes tourniquet.
Ouch.

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I'm not an expert at this stuff but doesn't anyone see a problem with having loop handles rather than a strap with a know at the end?



If they are made over sized they slip off real easy, and are easy to hang on too in freefall.



Unless they somehow get twisted up and trap your hand(s). I saw that happen a few years ago. Resulted in a reserve ride, and a bloody, mangled hand that looked quite painful.

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It's a lightwight piece of fabric. After releasing the right hand side it just trailed effortlessly. Even if it had twisted a bit it would have been easy to discard,

Cheers,
Jon



The banner in the incident I described was also a lightweight piece of fabric. When it twisted up, it was not easily discarded. Twisting a loop makes the opening smaller. If it gets small enough, your hand is trapped. If it happens to both hands at the same time, things could get interesting! Sound impossible? I don't remember the exact details of what happened in the incident I described, but things went bad before one side was released.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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It's a lightwight piece of fabric. After releasing the right hand side it just trailed effortlessly. Even if it had twisted a bit it would have been easy to discard,

Cheers,
Jon



If it decides to get caught in a burble, wrap a hand, or wrap a leg, it's not so easily discarded. I've seen a very simple flag become very complex very fast. I've also seen a simple piece of 'Caution tape' become a problem on a tracking dive, even though it too, should have been really simple (and had been chopped from a foot before deploying the main).

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Sigh. Okay, I somehow survived a very dangerous experience.

Even if the thing HAD twisted up & was impossible to release it still would have been easy to pull handles.

Jon



"very dangerous?" Where did that come from?:P

The jumps/groups that are most scary (to me) are those that seem to think things are very simple (like raft dives or Mr. Bill, as a couple of 'simple' examples) and often aren't.
A 3' banner could reasonably easily get caught up on a helmet, deploying lines, riser, twisted on a hand....it's the "simple" stuff that causes bad days for some folks.

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Congrats on your success!

I have a banner the same size, flag actually, that I sometimes fly.

I put different-colored loops on the corners.
I S-folded the flag into my left sleeve of my jumpsuit with the loops out and around my left thumb, right side loop going on last..

Exiting as normal, after I get off the hill I simply reach over with my right hand, take the proper color loop and pull it all out of my sleeve...it opens nicely with no problems.

On deployment, I simply release the right loop and extend my left hand far out in front of my head. The flag streamers and I pull. No problems.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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