Real cutaway - practice makes perfect

[crashtested 0]

I was just speaking to a buddy (non skydiver) about the small risks involved in the sport, mainly covering malfunctions and drills. He asked me why the only practice of cutaways are when you are having a real problem, and surley that really is not the best time to make sure your EP's were sound.

I explained to him that during training be it raps or aff people do go though the procedure of cutting away from mock up harnesses or repeat the procedure time and time again with a training vest.

again he though that it was strange that there were no more technical procedures, i'e a rig with 3 parachutes, that you can take up and practice your drills whilst up high, and experiance a subterminal opening / And a reserve drill in a real life scenario.

So the question is why not, or is there a training program that does, or is it even needed.

The, is it needed makes me think of the only time i have pulled a reserve handle was when i was getting a reserve repack, i did not pull the handle down enough and cut only half my rig away. Now that would have scared me had it happened up there under a spinning main. maybe unrealistic but still makes you think!!

Is more training needed to prepare you for the worst case scenario??

[AggieDave 6]

There are 3-canopy rigs used specifically for intentional cutaways.

After 6 cutaways I'll tell you that hanging harness and other "non-practical" training works like a champ.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[crashtested 0]

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There are 3-canopy rigs used specifically for intentional cutaways.

After 6 cutaways I'll tell you that hanging harness and other "non-practical" training works like a champ.

But we can't all pack badly , i'm talking about the people who don't shoe there canopy in on every jump

[AggieDave 6]

Yup, bad packing, too bad I didn't pack a single one of them.

Its a concept that comes down to something called Hicks Law. Basically it says that the more options you have the longer that your response will take. You practice the same thing time and time and time again, people tend to react correctly.

Basically it comes down to a tert-rig would be great for every DZ to have so someone could do a practice cutaway. However, the ones I've been around are different enough that the handles are in different locations and the rig operates differently. For instance, with a chest mounted 2nd reserve the cutaway and reserve handles are now outboard, like a tandem system.

Would it be neat to experience an intentional cutaway, I'll tell you from personal experience that yes it is neat. Is it necessary or even truly effective for training? I really don't believe so.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pchapman 261]

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So the question is why not, or is there a training program that does, or is it even needed.

1. The cutaway process is generally believed to be straightforward enough that simple ground simulation is acceptable. (We're not test flying a complex aircraft.)
2. It can be significantly more difficult to set up an in-air than an on-ground simulation of an emergency cutaway.
3. Certain parts (but not all parts) of the in-air simulation may not be that valid for training purposes, if handles are in different places.
4. In-air simulation of an emergency can create its own emergency. (An old topic in aviation - don't make the simulation of an engine failure turn into a real crash.)

Despite all that, your final question ("Is more training needed to prepare you for the worst case scenario??") is sometimes answered with a YES. The on-ground simulation that people do is not always representative enough to make the task simple to do in the air.

[Floats18 0]

I've only had one cutaway, but it occured during a canopy entanglement and subsequent spinning, bumping and yelling....

The cutaway procedure was the easiest part of the experience, it was as if my hands and the handles were magnatized and they operated without thought or effort. I have no doubt that the ease of the cutaway was a direct result of my on-ground drilling.

I also have no doubt that the cause of the cutaway was a direct result of a pair of idiots

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[kefran 0]

Having 1 cutaway in my log-book i can say the following :

practicing with 3 res rigs won't help much as you won't have to cut in emergency situation, so your feelings won't be the same at all. I think that it will be somewhat similar as doing a Mr Bill ...

and regarding the power needed to pull the left handle ... welll ... don't freak about that, the moment you'll be freefallin without any canopy over your head : you'll have the strength of Hercules to pull !

in my situation i remember this :

I've heard at the bonfire that to cutaway we need to pull really hard. so when my time came i pulled like a madman on the cutaway pillow-handle .... so strong in fact that i wasn't able to keep it in my hand and all i could see was the cables sliding into my hand and .... disappeared :)

anyway : i lost an handle, opened my res and i'm still alive to tell the story : that's all it counts

the ground practices i made years ago before where still present and the needed move was intact.

cheers !

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[Inigo_Montoya 0]

I'd like to re-ask this question and see if there are any new or different responses.

The topic being intentional/training cutaways and them being required to get your A license.

When I went through pilot training, yes you use simulators and dry run through's of EP's but you also go through many hours of actual emergency simulations with stall training, steep turns, power loss, etc in real flight.

I understand all gear and handle locations are not the same, but what is the argument against training cutaways and having the student experience the actual sensation of cutting away?

Besides the below:
-you could induce a bigger emergency, etc
(I don't like this logic, for the same could be said for the training you receive in getting your PPC, but they still do it.) (Maybe the instructor present makes a difference actually, now that I think while I type)

Instructors: have you ever had a student request to do a cutaway? Did you let them?

Is there any advice besides continuous ground training of EP's for someone who does not want to wait for that first cutaway in an emergency, in efforts to gain just a little experience of the sensation of that situation?

/bored at work

"I'm not young enough to know everything." O.W.

[david3 0]

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I'd like to re-ask this question and see if there are any new or different responses.

The topic being intentional/training cutaways and them being required to get your A license.

When I went through pilot training, yes you use simulators and dry run through's of EP's but you also go through many hours of actual emergency simulations with stall training, steep turns, power loss, etc in real flight.

I understand all gear and handle locations are not the same, but what is the argument against training cutaways and having the student experience the actual sensation of cutting away?

Besides the below:
-you could induce a bigger emergency, etc
(I don't like this logic, for the same could be said for the training you receive in getting your PPC, but they still do it.) (Maybe the instructor present makes a difference actually, now that I think while I type)

Instructors: have you ever had a student request to do a cutaway? Did you let them?

Is there any advice besides continuous ground training of EP's for someone who does not want to wait for that first cutaway in an emergency, in efforts to gain just a little experience of the sensation of that situation?

/bored at work

I’m all for doing an intentional cutaway but making it mandatory may be too far. There is something to be said about “you could induce a bigger emergency”. Using your example of pilot training, didn’t the FAA stop requiring pilots to take mandatory spin recovery training because they determined that more accidents
happened due to the training than were prevented because of the training?

[Ron 7]

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When I went through pilot training, yes you use simulators and dry run through's of EP's but you also go through many hours of actual emergency simulations with stall training, steep turns, power loss, etc in real flight.

Your instructor does not shut off the engine and make you land in an unimproved field.

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Besides the below:
-you could induce a bigger emergency, etc

And it totally could cause a real problem. Very experienced jumpers have died trying intentional cutaway jumps.... It is too much to ask a student to handle.

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Instructors: have you ever had a student request to do a cutaway? Did you let them?

Yes, no.

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Is there any advice besides continuous ground training of EP's for someone who does not want to wait for that first cutaway in an emergency, in efforts to gain just a little experience of the sensation of that situation?

Hanging harness

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Inigo_Montoya 0]

Thanks for humoring me guys.

"I'm not young enough to know everything." O.W.

[Divalent 89]

As a noob who hasn't had to cut away yet (but did have to use a reserve long ago), I do wonder a bit what you are looking for.

If you search YouTube for actual cutaways, they come in many different varieties from relatively gentle defects where they are falling just a bit too fast (with lots of time/altitude to think, plan, and react), to rapidly spinning twisted diving beasts after a low opening where they are on their back with G forces threatening to cause a blackout.

If you want the ones that would create the most panic and challenge your abilities and training, I suspect you'd have to create quite a risk to get into that position. So what sort of cutaway scenario are you looking for?

[Inigo_Montoya 0]

At the moment, I am personally not looking for any. I was just engaging some conversation after a few random thoughts. Good point btw in regards to the large range of scenarios. It would appear the risk vs reward is pretty obvious in this one. Thanks.

"I'm not young enough to know everything." O.W.