perse 0 #1 October 13, 2005 "Missy opened up in a severe line twist spin under her Velocity 90. She told me she immediately was thrown on her back which she knew meant the centrifugal force would not allow her to kick out (Skydive Chicago exclusive training!)" Why is it actually impossible to kick out twists when on your back...? Someone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #2 October 13, 2005 >Why is it actually impossible to kick out twists when on your back...? >Someone? Many reasons. Perhaps the canopy is spinning faster than you can spin yourself so it keeps getting worse. Perhaps you can spin yourself fast enough, but you are descending at 100 feet per second and are only 10 seconds from impact. Perhaps the canopy is spinning so fast that you're starting to black out from G-forces. Being on your back alone does not mean that the spin is unrecoverable, but it's your first clue that these are not normal line twists you're dealing with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #3 October 13, 2005 my friend has great video of him kicking out of such line twists on a vx 79. yeah, it took him 5500' to do it but he got it done. he depoyed at 12kSlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #4 October 13, 2005 I'm always afraid staying with a spinning canopy too long might make me too dizzy/make the g-forces too high. I do a lot of hopnpops from 12k, although not with xbraced canopies. I guess it depends, but if I'm on my back (Safire 126) or the canopy is horizontal with linetwists (Spectre 135!), so far I've always chopped it. Although in these cases it was more than just linetwist, I didn't even try to kick out... Both cases were after normal freefall jumps though. I've handled diving Vengeance's and also a Stiletto with linetwists fine, but those were not diving linetwists. I wonder if I wouldn't just chop at altitude, and then spend the rest of the day looking for the canopy I don't know how high the g-forces can become with a lightly loaded vengeance 120, and I don't think I want to find out Let alone on a tiny xbraced. Or am I just being a wuss? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #5 October 13, 2005 do what you have to do to save your life. if that means chopping at 12k then do it. i don't question people's decisions in these matters, i just take a note for my self and then apply what i've learned if i'm ever in the same situation.Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #6 October 13, 2005 QuoteOr am I just being a wuss? I'd rather be a wuss than dead. "Spirited" line twists are a potential precursor of seriously bad stuff. I consider "spirited" line twists an entry into the "maybe" area - maybe I can get out of this, maybe I can get back to the airport, etc.. I don't like maybes. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #7 October 13, 2005 Would you be able to persuade him to stick that up on Skydiving Movies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #8 October 13, 2005 Quote>Why is it actually impossible to kick out twists when on your back...? >Someone? Many reasons. Perhaps the canopy is spinning faster than you can spin yourself so it keeps getting worse. Perhaps you can spin yourself fast enough, but you are descending at 100 feet per second and are only 10 seconds from impact. Perhaps the canopy is spinning so fast that you're starting to black out from G-forces. Being on your back alone does not mean that the spin is unrecoverable, but it's your first clue that these are not normal line twists you're dealing with. My two cutaways were both from spinning line twists. In each case it seemed that once I was on my back the system (canopy + me) became dynamically stable in that state. Didn't spend a whole lot of time on the analysis, though.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver1717 0 #9 October 14, 2005 I had my first cutaway two weeks ago, 1:1 loading Sabre 1. Had good body position before pulling at 3.4k. I pull a little high as I roll it and need 0.8-1k till open. After all it's a Sabre 1. I had a lot of line twists and I managed to get out of approximately half of them before the canopy spinning became so severe that it had me horizontal. (Previously I had thought only tequila could cause spins this quick.) Reached my hard deck of 2k and cut away. My rigger confirmed that the left toggle had released hence the spins. I must not have stowed the toggle correctly, although I normally am really careful about toggle stowage. Live and learn. And yes....I bought beer... after I recovered my canopy 5 hours later from the swamp. Surprisingly only the pilot chute got a little wet. Everything else was suspended by the cattails. I now love cattails. The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious. And why shouldn't it be? It is the same the angels breathe. — Mark Twain, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #10 October 14, 2005 I don't know if being on your back means you automatically can't get out of it, but it does indicate things are going south. I've only chopped spinning linetwists once, and I've kicked out of them several times. The one set I chopped, I cutaway pretty much immediately because I somehow knew (right or wrong) that there was no way I was going to be able to kick out of them. It went violent, I ended up on my back, and then things started to really pick up speed. Ka-chink! Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #11 October 14, 2005 i have the video and will try and put it up tonight after work. i'll let you guys knowSlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #12 October 14, 2005 QuoteWould you be able to persuade him to stick that up on Skydiving Movies? There's already a video at skydivingmovies.com by Tom Sanders of himself kicking out of a badly spinning crossbrace. I never liked it much and after the two fatalities at WFFC I really don't like it. I mean it's his decision and his life, but it's sending the wrong message about messing with spinners. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #13 October 16, 2005 You have 1200 skydives and you haven't figured out the answer to that question? Gee, where do you jump that you have never seen this situation happen before? BTW, from what I understand Melissa has soft housings and it's really hard to chop from those when you are spinning. Hence the reason I got hard housings back on my rig.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #14 October 16, 2005 Quotefrom what I understand Melissa has soft housings The original poster was quoting from a mail written by Roger Nelson. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #15 October 16, 2005 QuoteQuotefrom what I understand Melissa has soft housings The original poster was quoting from a mail written by Roger Nelson. Yes, I know that. But since I was writting about what I know about the mal, and I was making reference to Melissa, I thought I'd make the reference using the correct name.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #16 October 16, 2005 QuoteYou have 1200 skydives and you haven't figured out the answer to that question? Gee, where do you jump that you have never seen this situation happen before? BTW, from what I understand Melissa has soft housings and it's really hard to chop from those when you are spinning. Hence the reason I got hard housings back on my rig. Melissa had soft housings. She got hard housings immediately following the incident described (as did a lot of people who heard the the story, myself included).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #17 October 16, 2005 Opps, I should have stated had. Thanks for catching thatMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #18 October 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotefrom what I understand Melissa has soft housings The original poster was quoting from a mail written by Roger Nelson. Yes, I know that. But since I was writting about what I know about the mal, and I was making reference to Melissa, I thought I'd make the reference using the correct name. How about "the artist formerly known as Missy" or "P. Missy" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #19 October 17, 2005 QuoteBeing on your back alone does not mean that the spin is unrecoverable, but it's your first clue that these are not normal line twists you're dealing with. I've always wondered about something about the term "on your back" with regards to spinning linetwists. If you are spinning (spiralling) so hard that you are laid out horizontal, couldn't you be on your belly too? Not really on your belly, but belly to earth. Or if you were "on" your back but decided to start kicking out, wouldn't you be alternating from belly to back every half twist? Or is there some physical phenomenon that causes the jumper/harness to always orient back to earth during a hard linetwist spiral?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #20 October 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeing on your back alone does not mean that the spin is unrecoverable, but it's your first clue that these are not normal line twists you're dealing with. I've always wondered about something about the term "on your back" with regards to spinning line twists. If you are spinning (spiralling) so hard that you are laid out horizontal, couldn't you be on your belly too? Not really on your belly, but belly to earth. Or if you were "on" your back but decided to start kicking out, wouldn't you be alternating from belly to back every half twist? Or is there some physical phenomenon that causes the jumper/harness to always orient back to earth during a hard linetwist spiral? Ok, so I was "on my back" this weekend for the first time... Should have been a chop, but luck allowed me to fix it by my decision altitude... And the fact I have a docile canopy... People saw me kick out of it and thought it was pretty intense that I was able to do it, and asked me how bad it hurt... It did not hurt until the next day, but the missing chunk on my helmet shows the deployment sucked, but I did not remember that as I was pretty busy saving my ass. So, I can say, yes, I was back to earth when I stopped spinning up, and belly to earth a few times as I kicked out... But the G forces were straight out thru my toes, to the horizon, with the canopy diving to mother earth... I burned thru 1000 feet in 5-8 seconds, and I know I was ready to chop in time... In fact I was going for my handles as I said, "try kicking once, you have time." Actually, I was surprised how easy it was to kick out... The few times I spun up some but was flying straight, I found it slow to kick out... This one, I think there was so much tension on the lines, with the G forces, that they wanted to unspin, I just had to start the momentum with my feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #21 October 19, 2005 i've uploaded the video of my friend kicking out of linetwists on his vx79 from 12k. this was not planned, it was just luck he had the camera where he did. video is titled 'gile spinner' under the malfunctions category. i don't know when it'll be available but hopefully tomorrow it will be 'cleared'Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #22 October 19, 2005 ok, it's on skydivingmovies.com now, enjoySlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #23 October 19, 2005 Quoteok, it's on skydivingmovies.com now, enjoy CRICK!www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #24 October 20, 2005 It took him 25sec and 5'500ft of altitude to clear that. That's a decent rate of 220ft/sec, or 150mph . That's a fairly graphic demonstration of how fast a highly-loaded elliptical can dive in a spin.... edit: google rocks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #25 October 20, 2005 QuoteIt took him 25sec and 5'500ft of altitude to clear that. That's a decent rate of 220ft/sec, or 150mph. That's a fairly graphic demonstration of how fast a highly-loaded elliptical can dive in a spin.... Not to mention how the blood in his body may have been reacting. Loose consciousness and there is no chance of recovery - perhaps a good idea to trust your reserve before there is nothing left of you but a memory? My first cutaway was a spinner and I got rid of it pretty quickly but then again, I was going through my low pull stage at the time. I have seen some skydivers barely survive situations fighting malfunctions as if it were the only parachute they had. Why do we spend all that time training on how to perform emergency procedures and end up coming dangerously close to death rather than just trust our reserve? Is it machismo or a lack of trust in the equipment? I know what I will do, find out what color my reserve is…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
