Exit order with a tracking dive on the load

[skymiles 3]

I was second out (2-way RW) after a tracking dive and gave them a full 12 seconds. However, at pull time I opened above another canopy from the tracking dive. I spoke with that jumper and he said that after opening he was just headed back to the LZ. I would have chalked it up to a fluke but the same thing happened on the next load, but this time, I opened above 3 canopies from the tracking dive. I spoke with the dive leader and he said that he takes the group out at an angle (?) to the flight line (east to west) and opens southwest of the LZ. He speculated that some trackers could not keep up and were tracking back to the LZ early or at breakoff some trackers were tracking back hard to the LZ instead of just getting separation from each other. Another possibility I think is that the angle between the tracking dive and the flight line was too shallow. I spoke with the ST&A of the DZ and he said he prefers the trackers go out last or have their own pass.

So what went wrong? Is the exit order wrong? Is the direction of the tracking dive wrong? Or were the jumpers on the tracking dive not properly briefed or not following the dive plan?

Phil

[billvon 2,772]

>So what went wrong?

The trackers were not following the dive plan. It must be made clear to them that they CANNOT head back to the DZ at the end of the dive. I'd put them out last because they can get back from bad spots better than an RW group can.

[riddler 0]

I've actually done solo tracking dives where I was told to jump behind the tandems. I was instructed to only fly away from the DZ, and I did. But it's interesting going out after tandems. I had 36 jumps at the time. Knowing what I know now, I don't think it's a good idea to go after tandems, but I don't think it's bad to be last out if there aren't any students or tandems.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[billvon 2,772]

>I've actually done solo tracking dives where I was told to jump
>behind the tandems.

That's what wingsuits do in any location other than Rantoul.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Trackers should exit either first or last (as in after the tandems) and fly a pattern which has them open on the opposite side of their exit point from the rest of the load (your group didn't do this).

Exiting first you might spend half the jump at 90 degrees to jump run, fly a short leg parallel to jump run but away from the landing area, and then return perpindicular to jump run. Regardless of where people track on break off it's impossible to be as close to subsequent groups as you would be on an RW jump.

Last you can continue along the line of flight for half the jump, turn 90 degrees, and then return. On the return part you lack the altitude needed to get back far enough to cause a problem.

[thelem 0]

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I'd put them out last because they can get back from bad spots better than an RW group can.

I agree they need to be put out first or last, and track away from the rest of the load, but I can't see how they can get back from bad spots better than an RW group, I would have thought it would actually be more difficult for them.

They can't track towards the DZ, because that is where the other jumpers are (assuming the aircraft did actually pass over the DZ) and why should they open high rather an RW group? Or am I missing something?

[billvon 2,772]

>but I can't see how they can get back from bad spots better than an RW group,

Because they have control over where they go. For example, they could exit, fly 90 from line of flight until 8000 feet, then turn 90 degrees and head back parallel to line of flight until deployment. Similar to what wingsuits do, except you don't have to worry about covering as much ground.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Similar to what wingsuits do, except you don't have to worry about covering as much ground.

Wing suits are a special case because of extremely low fall rate and long range. You can exit after the tandems, fly a mile along the line of flight, fly some more, fly 1.5 miles back to the center of the LZ, and open a minute after the last tandem.

If you go through the previous groups' opening altitude over a minute will have past versus 10 seconds for the last tandem group when tracking - you'll be able to see their open canopies for a long time. You'll also be approaching any open canopies with half the decent rate you'd have on most tracking dives so it will be less of a problem. Finally, observing the 4500 foot opening recomendation will have you above the tandems.

[riddler 0]

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Trackers should exit either first or last (as in after the tandems)

I'm not sure if I agree that trackers should go after students/tandems. We hope they have control over where they are going, but to me the primary concern seems to be opening altitude. A typical tracker will open at maybe 3,000 feet, whereas a student/tandem will open at 5,000 feet. If the tracker gets enough separation, it's not an issue. But at 38 jumps, did I necessarily have the skills to get away from the tandems, or even know what direction I was going? If the tracker makes a mistake in direction or doesn't have the skills to actually move away, he/she ends up in freefall over students/tandems as they are opening.

On the other hand, putting them before the students/tandems has the same problem, if trackers don't track perpendicular to the jump run. It's hard for me to say either way is better. I know that in the conversations and reading I've done about exit order, no one really mentions trackers - or maybe they just lump them in with wingsuits.

Wingsuits seem a different animal - for one, the jumpers have hundreds of jumps (at least) and probably know where they are going, and they have a lot more range with a lot less effort.

Maybe put low-time trackers before the students, and experienced trackers after? Or make a second pass mandatory for those jumpers? I think a lot of the current theory of exit order is based on people falling straight down, and trackers/wingsuits don't fit very well into that theory.

To me it seems that a second pass is the best option. If only one pass is allowed, then you have a choice.

1. Put trackers before the tandems/students. This has the advantage that they go first and will open lower the tandems/students, and therefore have less of a risk of ending up "on top" of anyone at opening. The disadvantage is they have less room for error in direction. They need to go 90 degrees to jump run, or they run into the group in front of or behind them. This seems a better method if the jumper has good heading control, but can't move very far.

2. Put trackers after tandems students. This has the advantage of tracking in more directions. Unless the tracker tracks right up jump run, he/she isn't going to run into anyone. The disadvantage is that if that does happen, the chance of a collision is increased due to different opening altitudes. This seems a better method if the jumper can track far, but not necessarily straight.

A lot of other factors come into play, primarily the skill of the tracker. We know that students probably won't get out of the way. We know that tandems can't get out of the way. Is either option better as a rule?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[benny 0]

At my DZ we trackers usually get our own pass which comes after everyone else has exited the otter, then we go two miles out and track in to the DZ, but we're also talking groups of several trackers.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[freakydiver 0]

At my DZ there's no way that would happen for monetary reasons

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[petetheladd 0]

At our DZ, Track dives are the last funjumpers to exit with one caveat.

Tandems are after that and of course the wingsuiters the much lastest of all.

P.t.L

No, Not without incident

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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At my DZ there's no way that would happen for monetary reasons

If you're speaking of MHSD, things have changed a little in the last few months. They won't purposely set out to have a seperate jump run for trackers, but they have no problems at all with doing go-arounds. In fact during safety day, they (management) made a point to tell people that go-arounds are okay and that they'd rather see proper exit seperation between the different groups and if that means doing go-arounds for those left on the airplane, then that's what will happen.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freakydiver 0]

Good deal, wasn't speaking of Mh in particular (its really only my home a quarter of the time anymore) but that is great news. In the past, they were simply terrible about go arounds. That's really good to hear, I look forward to making it back up there sooner than later...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[piisfish 137]

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Wingsuits seem a different animal - for one, the jumpers have hundreds of jumps (at least) and probably know where they are going, and they have a lot more range with a lot less effort.

I'm with you on the 1st part, they PROBABLY know where they are going.
Not with you on the 2nd part... more range yes, less effort would love to...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[tso-d_chris 0]

I am curious about the logic behind putting trackers out before tandems. Tandems fall straight down, for the most part, while trackers can cover lots of ground, and need more distance between exit point and opening point.

The best solution I have heard is Billvon's:

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[Trackers] could exit, fly 90 from line of flight until 8000 feet, then turn 90 degrees and head back parallel to line of flight until deployment. Similar to what wingsuits do, except you don't have to worry about covering as much ground.

It has been my experience that tandem exit points are about the right distance from the DZ to open at, but far too short to exit at. Treating trackers like (much less efficient) wingsuits should be beneficial to everyone on the load, offering separation and nice opening spots.