Flat Spin

[laurenbren 0]

Today I went with an experienced freefly coach to try to work on back flying and sit. It was my 79th jump. Shortly after a bad attempt at a sit fly exit I got to my back and got into a flat spin. I went back to basics from AFF and tried arching hard to get back to my belly and stable with no results. I tried bringing my arm in to flip me back to my belly, but that also didn't work. I checked my altimeter, but even though I could see the outline of the altimeter I couldn't read the numbers. I am not sure if this was from moving so fast, chaos in my brain or just general disorientation. I kept working on body position trying to find something that would work. At around 4500 something finally worked and I got stable enough to pull. The problem is I don't know exactly what I did to get out of the spin. I have since watched the video of the jump, talked to other jumpers and read some on the forum. I have read that some people suggest trying to get into a track to slow the spin and others suggest getting into a ball to stop the spin and then arching to get stable again. I was shocked at how disorienting the spin was and how hard it was to get stable again. I am just looking for any thoughts/feedback on the best and quickest way to get out of a flat spin when arching and bringing an arm in isn't working. I have to say I am a little hesitant to get back in the air out of fear that if I got myself into that position again that I couldn’t get out of it. (p.s. yes, it was probably too soon to freefly and doing a sit exit without being steady on my back was a bad idea. I am putting all that on hold as a lesson learned but still want to learn how to get out of a spin in case it happens in another situation)

[rwieder 0]

Remember one thing: "ARCH" fixes everything, no matter what it is. "ARCH" Don't go to tracking, balling up, none of that other stuff, simply arch out.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[ufk22 32]

Please post a link to the video

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[rwieder 0]

Video, no video, the answer I gave is the correct fix to the "Flat Spin" If it hadn't been for Derek and Chris I would have been a lawn dart 13 years ago. I know from countless SkyDives, flat spins the whole nine yards "Arch Fixes Everything"

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[sundevil777 94]

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Video, no video, the answer I gave is the correct fix to the "Flat Spin" If it hadn't been for Derek and Chris I would have been a lawn dart 13 years ago. I know from countless SkyDives, flat spins the whole nine yards "Arch Fixes Everything"

If only the person having the problem wasn't having a problem with arching correctly without a problem.

Even on your back, a really good, symmetric arch doesn't mean you'll go belly to earth. If that was true, then you wouldn't be able to reverse arch belly to earth without flipping on your back. Balling up for a second is a good way to provide an opportunity to come out of it belly to earth. A barrel roll would be more elegant, but newbies aren't always elegant.

People get in trouble spinning because they are not symmetric. Simply arching might not fix it because they don't realize what is asymmetric. Tracking is a good way to provide an opportunity to come out of the track symmetric. Newbies aren't so good at realizing what is causing a spin,

Some things are appropriate for students to do in response to such situations, and when they get more jumps, it is good to know some other options. I am not an instructor, and I never had problems with stability, so of course, as usual, my advice should be considered wrong.

To the OP, you really should be very confident at your ability to get on and then off of your back by barrel rolls and flips before doing other types of freefly stuff. Work on that skill alone on some jumps.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rwieder 0]

Arch still fixes everything!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[pchapman 262]

I'll go with sundevil here.
Arch all you want but if you aren't symmetrical you may continue to be applying pro-spin input and continue to spin. And if someone is having a problem with turning, telling them "just be symmetrical" is only slightly more useful than saying "just fly properly".

[popsjumper 2]

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Arch still fixes everything!

I have to disagree and say the ARCH is not a panacea. Balling up is one way to remove the asymmetry that is causing the spin.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnSherman 1]

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Arch still fixes everything!

No! An arch does not fix everything. As the man above mentioned if you’re kinesthetic are bad you can't tell if you are symmetrical or not when you arch and an unsymmetrical arch can exacerbate the spin.

The answer, as I was taught some 50 years ago, is to go into a track. Drop your arms back along you side and straighten your legs. As soon as direction is established go back to F&S.

I spent much of my career training students. One of my favorite pastimes was to "Straighten out" Spinning Students. I would get close enough to grab them by the hands as they spun past and shake them out like a bed sheet, into stability. Video always showed an asymmetrical anomaly in the students’ body position. These anomalies were usually caused by a past injury such as a broken bone which had to be immobilized by casting followed by a period of inactivity.
Once the anomaly was defined the student could concentrate on correctly controlling that body part or compensating so as to remain on heading.

This lesson used to be standard fair in the first jump course. Its probably in a USPA Training syllabus, somewhere but it seems to have stopped being taught some years back.
Don’t feel bad Felix missed this lesson also.

[BillyVance 34]

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Arch still fixes everything!

I remember my first long freefall... I went into a flat spin on my belly, in a boxman position. I thought I was arching. Turns out I was too rigid and my knees weren't even.

Arch, but relaxed. Click your heels together 3 times and tell yourself, "there's nothing better than a good arch"



Edited to add: what JohnSherman said. Obviously I was not the only one who had the flat spin problem.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Heh, I can arch like a mother-bitch. Much to the chagrin of my instructors. They spent all that time teaching me how to arch. They did a really good job. I'm now having to learn to de-arch.

Is 70-some-odd jumps perhaps a little early to be getting into freeflying? I only have a handful more, but I felt like I was being rushed into it. I'm working on back-flying a bit in the tunnel but think if I tried it in the air I could easily end up spinning in a similar situation. With a couple of hours in the tunnel, I told my tunnel instructor I wanted to work on belly skills until they're rock solid. So instead of going down the freeflying road, I'm working on stuff like mantis and side sliding and stuff like that. I feel like I'd have missed all this if I'd gone rushing into freeflying.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[Whamie 0]

Glad you made it back ok. Have you looked into getting some tunnel time before attempting freefly maneuvers?

[popsjumper 2]

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So instead of going down the freeflying road, I'm working on stuff like mantis and side sliding and stuff like that. I feel like I'd have missed all this if I'd gone rushing into freeflying.

Good stuff. You are doing it right. I wish everyone could be as head-up as that.

The OP is trying to out-fly his ass in that he doesn't yet understand the dynamics of freefall body position. Belly flying is, IMO, the easiest way to start getting a grip on it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SCS292 1]

Didn't we go head down into a power dive in the old days and then track out of it?

[DcloudZ 0]

Isn't there an AFF jump that covers unstable back exit to neutral stable position?

In all seriousness though it may be a good idea to practice backflying at the tunnel in a controlled environment before starting up in the sky

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[laurenbren 0]

Yes there is!! I have gotten unstable and stable again tons of times with no issues. I am burbled on almost every big way and love flipping out of the plane in every ridiculous way possible. Arching has always worked for me in those situations. That is why I was so caught off guard when I couldn't get out of the spin.

[laurenbren 0]

I didn't get a copy of it! Sorry.

[laurenbren 0]

Thank you for your reply. You are right on. I think my biggest issue was that I was tense, disoriented and very asymetrical. Unfotunately I was VERY comfortable with my ability to get stable which just shows how little I knew about the difference from belly to back. I thought my experience with doing flips and getting unstable would get me through back flying just fine. My assumption was that I would get unstable and I would just get back to belly and it would be a fun experience. Skydiving can be very humbling and will weed out the stupid people. I was lucky to make it throught the jump to be reminded of that.