Flaring

[loch1957 0]

I'm curious as I'v seen it taught both ways. When I took my first class the instructor said to flare at 15 feet and gave land marks around as a way to judge your altitude. When I went to this DZ which I love I retook the class. It had been several months. There I was taught to flare in stages as in 1-bring toggles to shoulder level, 2-bring toggles to chest level and 3-full flare. My question is which way would you teach and which way do you flare? Is it a matter of preference or is there a specific reason for doing it one way. The flaring in steps works fine for me. I was curious.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[theonlyski 3]

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I'm curious as I'v seen it taught both ways. When I took my first class the instructor said to flare at 15 feet and gave land marks around as a way to judge your altitude. When I went to this DZ which I love I retook the class. It had been several months. There I was taught to flare in stages as in 1-bring toggles to shoulder level, 2-bring toggles to chest level and 3-full flare. My question is which way would you teach and which way do you flare? Is it a matter of preference or is there a specific reason for doing it one way. The flaring in steps works fine for me. I was curious.

For students on bigger canopies (thinking Solo and Triathalons) I teach the single flare 'at about the height you can kick me in the face' and it works pretty well.

For someone moving to an appropriate canopy I teach the 2-stage (which you have listed in 3 stages).

Some people are perfectly happy with the slamming the brakes on, but if you want a surf or jumping something that wants to glide, slamming the brakes down will only balloon you up.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Snowflake 0]

I would be very interested to see how this works for larger sample of students, if you get the chance ask your compatriots and find the people that have been taught in a fashion similar to yours. I really would like to see how this is working with a larger sample.

I started with a "2 stage" flair not because I was taught that way, but because I wanted to see how much the flare would slow me down in relation to the ground. I was taught that if I flared early to stop and wait till I was lower and finish the flare. I decided that was what I was going to do so I could get a feel. The long and short of it is that I started with a "2 stage" flare and didn't really do a 1 stage flare until the winds picked up in the fall and I was well past student status.

What I observed during that time is that in no wind landing a one stage flare is much harder than landing a 2 stage flare. People who bitch about landing in no wind usually use a 1 stage flare. On a no wind day go out and watch. Look at how they flare and the resulting landing. Watch long enough you'll see the pattern(Don't use swoopers as references in your observations). I've always felt that it should be a license requirement to demonstrate a "2 stage" flare on a no wind day

That being said if you can learn a "2 stage" flare as a student your much better off IMHO. It's much easier to go from a "2 stage" flare on a no wind day to a 1 stage flare on a windy day.

Finally, the right tools for the right situation. 1 stage flares are great for when your coming straight down in wind, but not so good on a no wind day, and vice versa.

(edit to add) In general with a two stage flare you add a little speed, but you flatten out and the second stage is used to bleed of speed by trading lift for speed. Hopefully someone will come along explain it better than I just did

[dragon2 0]

I believe the manner of flaring depends a lot on the type of student canopy used. It does not depend on the wind conditions for sure.

A manta-type canopy benefits the most from a single flare. A sport canopy will flare much better using a 2stage flare. Anything in between, like a large triathlon, you can do both.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[loch1957 0]

Thanks for replies.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[dthames 0]

I started doing a two stage at about jump 5. I don’t recall exactly what got me started doing it. Maybe I was a bit early and just held it. But after the first time, I continued using that method. I have done it with a Manta and a Navigator. The first stage seems to slow me enough that it is easier to get my final flare timing right. I am still just a beginner. All I know is that is seems to be good for me.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[sundevil777 93]

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I believe the manner of flaring depends a lot on the type of student canopy used. It does not depend on the wind conditions for sure.

In high winds, you only need to get the canopy to the "plane-out" phase of what you would do on a no/light wind day instead of also having to "shut it down", so I'd say the manner of flaring can change depending on wind.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[loch1957 0]

Dammit I have a lot to learn. Good thing I have great instructor.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Quote

I believe the manner of flaring depends a lot on the type of student canopy used. It does not depend on the wind conditions for sure.

In high winds, you only need to get the canopy to the "plane-out" phase of what you would do on a no/light wind day instead of also having to "shut it down", so I'd say the manner of flaring can change depending on wind.

Maybe I worded that wrong. I know you flare different if there is a lot of wind, however that is a "damped down" 2stage flare, not quite the same flare as the 1stage flare on a student canopy.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[milehigheric 0]

I was taught a 3 stage flare when I started (still a novice by the way). I may be wrong but I would picture it very hit and miss teaching a one stage to a student. Flaring was never 'really' an issue for me coming from an aviation background (despite the differences) however I have seen that judging flare height can be challenging for some especially on the first few jumps. From what I have seen at my local it appears as if it is usually a higher perception rather then lower (flaring to early). I believe a 3 stage allows you to recover from an early flare more effectively. You quickly become aware you are too high at stage one but you can hold it quarter breaks and still have enough airspeed to produce a full flair and avoid a PLF when it's time.

As I said, Im still a novice but I see a 3 stage more forgiving when you are still learning to judge flair height.

[dmaline 0]

Im going through AFF currently and am having a tough time completely judging my height off the ground ... i havent found the sweet spot just yet. I either flare too early or a bit too late and can't stand up my landing ... I have started working on the 2-stage flare but am stil having issues. I am looking forward vs. looking down.

Does anyone have any suggestions to make this easier? I have been told its going to take some time .. but damnit, i need to stand up the landing to get my A license.

Any advice would be awesome

[Southern_Man 0]

dmaline

Im going through AFF currently and am having a tough time completely judging my height off the ground ... i havent found the sweet spot just yet. I either flare too early or a bit too late and can't stand up my landing ... I have started working on the 2-stage flare but am stil having issues. I am looking forward vs. looking down.

Does anyone have any suggestions to make this easier? I have been told its going to take some time .. but damnit, i need to stand up the landing to get my A license.

Any advice would be awesome

It takes time. Video is a great tool

Many times it is not just the flare height. I have seen many new jumpers insist they completed their flare when they had not.

Are you jumping the same canopy each jump? That is another variable even if they are the same make and size.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[DocPop 1]

Assuming you mean sweet spot in the sense it is used in canopy courses, then yes, I do have advice: practice up high.

Do dedicated canopy jumps and practice flaring to the point where your canopy planes out, ie. it is flying horizontal, you are no longer losing any altitude. Now practice that until you know where the point is. The drill goes like this:

- clear your airspace
- let the canopy fly with no input for 10 seconds
- flare to the point where the canopy planes out
- hold that point and remember it.
- repeat

On landing, look out in front of you, not down and when you are about 10-12 feet off the ground flare to your sweet spot. If the ground keeps coming at you, flare some more. If you're just right or too high hold you hands in their position until you start to sink out then progressively and smoothly add more toggle to ease you down to a touchdown just as you reach full flare.

Always finish your flare and try to keep flying the parachute for as long as you can.

As always, listen to your instructors and if possible have them video debrief the landings. Stand up landings are easier when there is a bit of wind (say 10-12 mph).

Finally, it is going to take practice and realize that there is no one perfect flare - it changes for every jump. I use the analogy of a non-driver asking a car driver "How do you know how much to turn the steering wheel to go around a corner?". It's a nearly impossible thing to answer; every corner is different and the best answer is "Just enough but not too much" which is nearly useless but applies to flaring too!

Good luck!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[dmaline 0]

To reply to both of the last posts ... yes, i am flying the same student rig and canopy.

Thank you for the advice in flaring. I'm gonna keep trying. This is probably the best and kindest advice i've heard.

I'm close to finishing up ... 22 jumps and finished my freefall skills. I still have canopy work to do, obviously.

Thanks again

[diver90 0]

you mentioned you're looking forward, by that do you mean directly forward? the trick I was taught and that I teach my students is to look down 45 degrees, not straight forward (you'll flare to late), not straight down(you'll flare too early), 45 degrees seems to be a pretty average sweet spot for where to be focusing when judging flare height.

hope this helps somewhat :)

[dmaline 0]

Yeah ... i was just told to look straight ahead. Obviously, its hard not to want to look down when on final. 45 degrees sounds reasonable ... if i can get up this weekend, i'll try that.

A friend also discussed really making sure i flare completely. I'm flying a big-ass canopy (student rig) so maybe i'm just not flaring all the way ... so many things to try and i want/need to do it in 3 more jumps to make it within my 25!

[DocPop 1]

dmaline

A friend also discussed really making sure i flare completely. I'm flying a big-ass canopy (student rig) so maybe i'm just not flaring all the way ... so many things to try and i want/need to do it in 3 more jumps to make it within my 25!

If your instructors allow it, pull high (7,000+) so you have some working time under canopy to practice not only the sweet spot, but also finishing your flare. This will probably be more useful to you than a few extra seconds of solo freefall.

Remember to tell everyone on the load if you plan to pull high before you board the plane, and also don't exhaust your arms to the point that you have no flare when you need to land!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

A friend also discussed really making sure i flare completely. I'm flying a big-ass canopy (student rig) so maybe i'm just not flaring all the way

You might also consider grabbing the toggle at the top/nose, letting the line come through between your fingers. This will allow you to have a few more inches of stroke in your flare without actually pulling down the toggle to begin with. That extra bit of stroke can help especially with large canopies. This assumes that you can naturally reach all the way up to that height on your risers.

Some will advocate taking a wrap/wrapping the steering line around your hand to get a deeper flare, but that has some significant disadvantages.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[DocPop 1]

Whoa there! We don't even know if he has established where the stall point is yet.

I thought about going into that but let's remember he isn't licensed yet.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[sundevil777 93]

DocPop

Whoa there! We don't even know if he has established where the stall point is yet.

I thought about going into that but let's remember he isn't licensed yet.

Quite right, my suggestion assumes that a person can't quite get it flared enough - that having more flare stroke actually is needed.

So, as usual, review with your instructors, don't trust us.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[popsjumper 2]

DocPop

Whoa there! We don't even know if he has established where the stall point is yet.

I thought about going into that but let's remember he isn't licensed yet.

Good catch.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

loch1957

I'm curious as I'v seen it taught both ways. When I took my first class the instructor said to flare at 15 feet and gave land marks around as a way to judge your altitude. When I went to this DZ which I love I retook the class. It had been several months. There I was taught to flare in stages as in 1-bring toggles to shoulder level, 2-bring toggles to chest level and 3-full flare. My question is which way would you teach and which way do you flare? Is it a matter of preference or is there a specific reason for doing it one way. The flaring in steps works fine for me. I was curious.

To answer your question directly...

There are 4 general flare methods:
(in order of complexity)
> 1-stage (Student Stab)
> 2-stage
> 3-stage (this is the one you described)
> Dynamic

Training schools use whatever method they choose.
There is no standard.

Most schools use the 1-stage and the 2-stage methods for new jumpers and later introduce them to the others.

The first three are good tools for learning. Once you get some experience under your belt, you'll find that have migrated to the dynamic approach without even realizing it. I prefer teaching it before that, though.

I prefer starting at the 2-stage level and progressing from there.

I'm not going to say what I do for fear that you may try it on your own without prior input and approval from your instructors.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dmaline 0]

I was thinking I was going to do that ... I love freefall but i need time to do some canopy work. I was actually planning to wave off and pull by 6000 ... and already know I need to tell everyone on the load :)

I do wonder if i am completely finishing my flare ... BTW, i'm female ... short and quite sturdy (they do have me on a 280 still). I don't have the longest arms so i have a feeling i may not be completely finishing my flare ... but that extra time under canopy would be a huge help ... Ive been so focused on finishing my freefall skills that my canopy skills havent been practiced ...

Thanks for the advice ... and yes, i know i need to discuss everything with my coaches and instructors for complete clarification.

Thanks!!!

[dmaline 0]

Thanks for the information ... In the beginning i was definitely just doing a 1-stage flare ... but my coach recommended i try the 2-stage. I understand it and can feel the difference .... However, i do wonder if the 3-stage would be easier? Also ... i am short and have wondered if my short-arms are holding me back from flaring fully?

[DocPop 1]

dmaline

I was thinking I was going to do that ... I love freefall but i need time to do some canopy work. I was actually planning to wave off and pull by 6000 ... and already know I need to tell everyone on the load :)

I do wonder if i am completely finishing my flare ... BTW, i'm female ... short and quite sturdy (they do have me on a 280 still). I don't have the longest arms so i have a feeling i may not be completely finishing my flare ... but that extra time under canopy would be a huge help ... Ive been so focused on finishing my freefall skills that my canopy skills havent been practiced ...

Thanks for the advice ... and yes, i know i need to discuss everything with my coaches and instructors for complete clarification.

Thanks!!!

Hi - and apologies for my gender assumption!

Canopy time is HUGE in gaining confidence. If the only time you flare is close to the ground then it's going to be stressful because you have to get it right. Practice up high will enable to you to develop feel for your canopy alongside the knowledge that the classroom has given you.

Re: finishing the flare - regardless of the length of your arms, you are finishing your flare when your elbows are locked out and both hands are in front of/between your thighs. This might not be as much flare as the canopy has to offer, but it's maximizing what you can get at this stage in your learning (later on things like adjusting the brake-lines may help when you have your own gear, but that's not for student rigs). It's a good habit to get used to flaring down the center-line of your body if you can because it helps keep it symmetrical.

My view is that freefall time is for fun and canopy time is to save your life and your legs (but is also huge fun!). Get your canopy flight down so you are confident and you won't have that worry hanging over you when you are supposed to be enjoying your freefall!

Keep working at it, get feedback from knowledgeable people and you'll get there soon.

All the best.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA