Clearing a pilot chute in tow

[jakee 1,256]

Ok, on one of my wingsuit jumps yesterday I had a PC in tow. I threw out as normal in a wingsuit (legs together, both hands under the rig, symmetrical throw, arms to my chest) - and felt nothing. A quick look over my shoulder showed the bridle fully extended trailing the PC behind me. My automatic reaction was to reach behind my rig, grab the bridle and yank the pin out by hand. Another look over my shoulder and I could see the bag reaching line stretch, and the canopy (sabre 150) deployed with a 180 offheading.

I'd thrown the PC at a little over 4,000ft, and my pro-track registered deployment at 3,100ft (plenty of height to spare, but it still gave me a pretty good jolt of adrenaline). When I got to the ground I could see that the bridle had wrapped round the hackey which had obviously stopped the PC from inflating properly.

The thought that crossed my mind before I pulled the pin was that I really didn't want to have to deploy my reserve past a trailing PC. My question - could pulling the pin have made the situation worse? For instance the partially inflated PC not pulling the bag from the container until the reserve was deploying - then having main and reserve deploying together?

Oh, and funnily enough if I hadn't been able to reach the bridle it would have been a perfect time for my first reserve ride - sunday afternoon and the reserve needs to be repacked before next weekend anyway.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[councilman24 36]

Pulling the pin can definately make things worse. You don't know why it's towing. It could be a misrouted and captured bridle. In that case you just went from a PC in to a horseshoe. And if you cut away the horse shoe you still have a streamer with the lines and risers flopping at the end.

I watched a woman at Richmond in about 1993 or so have a PC in tow. Probably about a 2500' deployment. She reached back and pulled the pin and created a horse shoe. The leg strap with the leg strap mounted throw out was twisted, capturing the bridle. She was hanging kind of sideways and spinning like a top under the horse shoe. She pulled her reserve and I watched her round reserve snake out through the mess. When I saw the PC leave I didn't think the reserve would have time to open. But it did at maybe 300 feet. She was still adding line twists from the spin under the horse shoe when she landed. Very, very nasty.

She borrowed a rig and jumped later that day.

While the reasons for towed PC's have decreased and captured bridles are much rarer it still can happen. While you happened to do something that worked and fast enough, you shouldn't count on it. Lots of skydivers have died trying to fix malfunctions in the air.

There are probably things unique to wing suits that could have gone wrong to, but I haven't jumped one so use your imagination.

But glad it worked out.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,400]

> Ok, on one of my wingsuit jumps yesterday I had a PC in tow.

I strongly recommend you replace your bridle/PC before you make another wingsuit jump.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

> Ok, on one of my wingsuit jumps yesterday I had a PC in tow.

I strongly recommend you replace your bridle/PC before you make another wingsuit jump.

***

I wondering if this is a more common occurrence with A hackey or Monkey foot, that with the PVC?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

I wondering if this is a more common occurrence with A hackey or Monkey foot, that with the PVC?

From the wingsuit thread forum (not the same accident, but similar situation). PICTURES:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=40325;

and

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=40326;

PVC handle (pipe) is a safer. It has a "lower" profile. It is also "closer" to the pilotchute. It is MUCH harder for the bridle to get UNDER the PVC handle than it is under hackey or monkey fist.

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

When I got to the ground I could see that the bridle had wrapped round the hackey which had obviously stopped the PC from inflating properly.

SAME situation here...

#71 Lukas Knutsson, October 11, 2002
Cliff Jump (Wing Suit)
Engelberg, Switzerland (Cold Steel)
Impact

Lukas has a good launch and good flight with his wingsuit and pulled high over the landing area. This is the third BASE wing suit fatality. Despite a powerful pull the pilot chute ended up in the turbulence behind him. In the burble the pilot chute spun around very fast. Lukas notices the deployment is hesitating and collapsed his wings and rolled to one side to clear the pilot chute.

At this point the pilot chute achieved bridle stretch but the bridle had entangled with the pilot chute so badly the pilot chute is almost totally collapsed. Lukas did rollover to the other side and struggled hard to get the canopy out of the container. However, the container remained closed to impact. Lukas is a very experienced long time BASE jumper (this site is now called "Cold Steel" in his honor) and he will be missed by the entire BASE community.

[jakee 1,256]

Quote

From the wingsuit thread forum (not the same accident, but similar situation). PICTURES:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=40325;

Yep, that is exactly how my PC was knotted. I had a PVC pipe on my last rig but really don't like the grip on them. I am thinking of getting a pud type handle to replace the hackey though.

Terry, thanks for your response also, scary stuff!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Orange1 0]

Newbie question... This discussion seems all about wingsuits so far, would the same problem potentially happen on a normal rig or is it a function of the longer bridle for wingsuits?

In general, is a PVC pipe better than a hackey then?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[amy 0]

Quote

Newbie question... This discussion seems all about wingsuits so far, would the same problem potentially happen on a normal rig or is it a function of the longer bridle for wingsuits?

Although it's more likely to happen on a wingsuit jump due to the lower speeds, different angle of flight, and larger burble (all of which interfere with a "clean" deployment of the PC), this can happen during a normal belly-to-earth deployment as well.

You can reduce the likelihood of this kind of entanglement by doing what you can to ensure a fast and clean deployment of your pilot chute:
- Give a good hard "throw" with your throwout, making sure that your hand is all the way out to your side and away from your burble.
- Use a pilot chute that's in good condition, with a kill line that's the appropriate length.
- Avoid bungee-type collapsibles, which may work fine when they're new, but increase the chances of a pilot chute hesitation as they get worn out.
- When you pack your pilot chute, stow the excess bridle inside the PC near the mesh, which keeps it away from the handle and will (at least theoretically) keep it contained until the PC starts to inflate.
- Use a bridle that's appropriate length for your container, main, and size, and for the type of skydiving you do.
- Let go of your pilot chute right away when you throw it out (see piisfish's Incidents thread for more on this one).

You can't eliminate the chances of something like this happening to you, but you can minimize them by making sure that your gear is in good condition and appropriate for what you're doing, and by avoiding the dreaded "lazy throw."

Amy

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Amy.. any comment re hacky vs PVC?

Quote

Let go of your pilot chute right away when you throw it out (see piisfish's Incidents thread for more on this one).

I was taught to do this, but until I read piisfish's thread I never really understood why...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[amy 0]

Quote

any comment re hacky vs PVC?

Well. . . a handle with a single attachment point (like a hacky or a monkey fist) probably could contribute to a problem like this because they're a little higher profile. And any loop of bridle that manages to get around it is less likely to clear because of the very narrow attachment point. PVC handles or freefly handles tend to be lower profile and attached to the fabric at both ends, which may minimize the risk (there is at least one exception, which is the freefly handle design by Wings, at least one generation of which had a single attachment point like a hackey). I've also heard it argued that if the handle is heavy, it could delay the launch of the pilot chute. Although that's probably not a major factor, it's an argument for PVC.

I don't know of anyone with any data on handle choice that's not anecdotal or theoretical, so this is purely my opinion.

I think the thing to realize is that handle choice is the tip of the iceberg - the best way to avoid this problem is to prevent the bridle from flopping around a hesitating pilot chute, and the way to do that is to keep your gear in good shape and get that PC into clean air.

Amy

[jakee 1,256]

Quote

Newbie question... This discussion seems all about wingsuits so far, would the same problem potentially happen on a normal rig or is it a function of the longer bridle for wingsuits?

The photos that skydiverek posted happened on an FF jump, and I have a standard bridle, not a longer WS one.

I should mention that I think sloppy packing and a slightly weak throw probably contributed a lot to my bridle knotting the PC

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Orange1 0]

Thanks...

I don't like PVC handles because (as i have posted here before) i once got my finger caught inside on the throw. The rig I bought has a puff and I was considering changing to a hacky because i prefer the "grip"...now i'm not so sure that is a good idea...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[NoRules 0]

So if your pilot chute is in good shape and everything was routed well and you had cocked it when packing, but it still got knotted up in your burble and you reached back and pulled the pin, would that still result in a horseshoe? Would the drag from the pilot chute, even though knotted, be enough to pull the bag and canopy out?

~ * Life Has No Rules * ~

[billvon 2,400]

>So if your pilot chute is in good shape and everything was routed
>well and you had collapsed it when packing, but it still got knotted up
> in your burble and you reached back and pulled the pin, would that
> still result in a horseshoe?

Depends on a lot of things. If the canopy is small, the bag is loose in the container, you're falling fairly fast and you sit up as you do it? It will probably deploy (although your odds of a baglock go up.) Tight container, contoured corners, large canopy and wingsuit? Probably not.

[NoRules 0]

Ah, so now I'm more confused than ever! I always figured that if I had a pilot chute in tow, I would reach back and pull the pin- but that doesn't seem like a good idea anymore!

~ * Life Has No Rules * ~

[billvon 2,400]

>I always figured that if I had a pilot chute in tow, I would reach back and pull the pin . . .

I don't recommend that unless you have a LOT of altitude. One of the more common pullout fatalities years back was due to a lost handle. They'd search for it, and feel it with the tips of their fingers, then lose it again (but they knew it was RIGHT THERE) . . . and then they'd hit the ground. And a floating pullout handle winds up in about the same place as a PC-in-tow bridle ends up.

Even if you do have the altitude, I'd recommend trying no more than twice. Even if you can feel it, and almost get it, give up after two tries no matter what.

Also, if you _do_ pull the pin, you now have to decide what to do next. Leave it there? The (collapsed) PC may not have enough drag to launch the bag. Pull the bag out too? The risk of a horseshoe goes way up if you do that.

Most people recommend standard emergency procedures for a pilot chute in tow. Just reserve, or cutaway/reserve, doesn't matter much. The odds of survival if you do that are very high; the odds of survival if you start messing with the bridle are somewhat lower.

[NoRules 0]

Thanks billvon! Off to read the pilot chute in tow thread now....

~ * Life Has No Rules * ~

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

Thanks...

I don't like PVC handles because (as i have posted here before) i once got my finger caught inside on the throw

My index finger got stuck in the PVC handle after I pulled on one jump! Talk about surprise - my right hand fully extended, palm open, and PC "attached" to my finger! I shook it off and it deployed normally... But it was scary. After that someone advised me to put a wine bottle cork (which is very lightwieght and provides snug fitting) into PVC to avoid this problem... It also fills the PVC pipe, making it snag-free.

[jakee 1,256]

Quote

So if your pilot chute is in good shape and everything was routed well and you had cocked it when packing, but it still got knotted up in your burble and you reached back and pulled the pin, would that still result in a horseshoe? Would the drag from the pilot chute, even though knotted, be enough to pull the bag and canopy out?

Just to clarify again, that is what happened to me - pc was knotted, I reached back and pulled the pin and the main deployed. From pitching the pc to fully deployed main took ~1000ft. All in a wingsuit.

I started the thread to see if that was a good decision, or if I just got really lucky. I think I'm now leaning towards lucky.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?