Death toll at the border

[billvon 2,772]

More and more children are dying in US custody.  The latest:

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Toddler apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border dies after weeks in hospital

By Maria Sacchetti

May 15 at 9:22 PM

A 2½-year-old Guatemalan boy apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border died Tuesday night in El Paso after several weeks in the hospital, according to the Guatemalan Consulate and another person with direct knowledge of the case.

The boy, who was not identified, arrived at the border with his mother days after now-acting homeland security secretary Kevin McAleenanheld a news conference near a crowded holding facility in El Paso on March 27 to warn that a surge of Central Americans was pushing the system to the “breaking point.”

The boy is the fourth migrant child to die since December after being apprehended at the southern border and taken to the hospital. All have been from Guatemala, a Central American nation experiencing severe drought and poverty, and where smugglers have been offering discounted trips to families traveling to the United States.

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Why is this happening?  Perhaps this could be part of the reason:

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Photos show children sleeping on ground at Texas Border Patrol station

BY ZACK BUDRYK - 05/14/19

The Hill

Photos obtained by CNN of migrants at a Border Patrol station in McAllen, Texas, show many, including children, sleeping on the ground on rocks or with Mylar blankets.

In one photo, a child sleeps outside on dirt next to a baby bottle full of milk. Others show migrants walking around the facility, which has four open sided tents set up to accommodate an influx of migrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border, according to the news outlet.

"Nobody, no matter who you are, where you are from should spend an hour like this. This is the United States of America. Not in our country," the source of the photos told the network.

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[turtlespeed 212]

Can you definitively prove that he wasn't sick and dying already when he got there? 

Was he refused medical service or treatment?

 

This is just me . . . but it sounds like his parents may be the main culprits here.

Its quite a ways from Guatemala to El Paso.

 

It seems like you are insinuating that because he was in US custody - he died.

Is that the case?  Is that what you are putting forth?

Or is this more sensationalism with no back up?  The left seems to be good at that.

[Rick 67]

Where is the connection to sleeping on the ground and the child's death? We can't even tell from this article if the child was in the same facility that the photos are from. 

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Where is the connection to sleeping on the ground and the child's death? We can't even tell from this article if the child was in the same facility that the photos are from. 

ITS TRUMPS FAULT!!!!!!!!

Its the general message you will get with this kind of story.

Sensationalism and false connections - notice none of the questions I asked above were fielded?

Where is the parents responsibility in this?  

Had they not done what they did - knowing it was illegal - the child may or may not be dead now.

 

I'm curious about what would happen if they applied the felony murder rule to this kind of case.

The child died in an illegal act.  

 

[billvon 2,772]

17 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Can you definitively prove that he wasn't sick and dying already when he got there? 

Was he refused medical service or treatment?

 

This is just me . . . but it sounds like his parents may be the main culprits here.

If the US allowed them in, gave them a court date, and then released them with their kids, then their parents are, and would remain, responsible for the health of their children.

If DHS takes their kids from them and puts the kids in a cage, then DHS is responsible for the health of those children.

Pretty simple really.

Let's ask this in a more familiar setting.  Let's say you were pulled over for speeding.  CPS came and took your kids away.  No one would tell you where they were.  A week later you found out they had died in custody.  Would you be guilty of felony murder?  And would you blame yourself?  Or CPS?

[airdvr 201]

Lotta "ifs" in there.  Unless you can say definitely that the kids wasn't sick, really sick before he went to the hospital it's simply conjecture.

[Rick 67]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

If DHS takes their kids from them and puts the kids in a cage, then DHS is responsible for the health of those children

the article says the child was in the hospital not a cage

[turtlespeed 212]

23 minutes ago, Rick said:

the article says the child was in the hospital not a cage

That simply doesn't do the feels any justice - stupid inconvenient facts!

What was the illness the child died from?  It couldn't be neglect or mal-nutrition.  I guess it COULD BE - but that would have most definately been a part of the article and everyone would be screaming that we (the US) malnourished a child and withheld medical and he died.  Thing is - the kid was in a hospital.  IF it was nourishment - I believe it would still fall on the Parents, or, if you must blame a government, why not blame Guatemala, or Mexico, or any of the other countries that may have been traveled through.

There is so much you could be blaming Trump for - use the stuff actually and factually attributed to him, you don't have to conflate an issue that has nothing to do with him.

 

But those things don't matter when you are sensationalizing and going with feels.

Trump Bad!  Argh!

Its just silly.

 

Lets put it this another way.

If you had your kids and went into a store and robbed it, and the kid died by stray gunfire, who would be responsible?

Or another way. . . . If you hear that there is a job opportunity in South Chicago, and you and your kids load up and go there, who's responsibility would it be if the kids ended up getting sick on the way there and died in a hospital? 

Edited May 17, 2019 by turtlespeed
To make sure everyone noticed that I didnt use the word Obtuse. :P

[normiss 733]

33 minutes ago, Rick said:

the article says the child was in the hospital not a cage

"Released from custody, while in the hospital"

WTAF?

[Rick 67]

34 minutes ago, normiss said:

"Released from custody, while in the hospital"

WTAF?

where did you find that Mark?

[turtlespeed 212]

14 minutes ago, Rick said:

where did you find that Mark?

This is laughable - 

According to NPR the kid was sick - and had a high fever when he was apprehended on the north bank of the Rio Grand river.

I say again - the Parents have the onus here.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/723984077/guatemalan-toddler-apprehended-at-u-s-border-dies-after-weeks-in-hospital

[Rick 67]

"A Customs and Border Patrol official familiar with the case said the mother informed federal agents that her son was sick after they were taken into custody. The official said the child was taken by ambulance that day to a local hospital, where he was diagnosed with pneumonia, and then transferred the following day to a children's hospital in El Paso."  

 

So never slept on the floor in a detention facility. Apprehended and taken to the hospital. So the article in first post is making a connection that is not true. How surprising!

 

[normiss 733]

Looks to be the same article Rick:

On April 6, the boy's mother advised agents that her son was ill, according to the border protection official, and the child was transported that day to a hospital in Horizon City, Texas, by EMS.

Paniagua said the child was showing a high fever and had difficulty breathing. He was moved to another hospital in El Paso the next day, the border protection official said.

On April 8, the child and mother were provided an NTA, or "notice to appear" in court documents, the official said, and the family was released on their own recognizance at the hospital, meaning they were no longer in border patrol custody.

[Rick 67]

They were taken straight to the hospital and never were in a detention facility is the point I was making. So "sleeping on the ground on rocks" had nothing to do with this poor kids death. 

The article is trying to make a connection that does not exist. 

The author new the facts but still wrote this "Why is this happening?  Perhaps this could be part of the reason: etc."

[turtlespeed 212]

14 minutes ago, normiss said:

Looks to be the same article Rick:

On April 6, the boy's mother advised agents that her son was ill, according to the border protection official, and the child was transported that day to a hospital in Horizon City, Texas, by EMS.

Paniagua said the child was showing a high fever and had difficulty breathing. He was moved to another hospital in El Paso the next day, the border protection official said.

On April 8, the child and mother were provided an NTA, or "notice to appear" in court documents, the official said, and the family was released on their own recognizance at the hospital, meaning they were no longer in border patrol custody.

So we are all in agreement here that this thread started with sensationalism and a false connection to the treatment of toddlers in custody?

Is that what I'm hearing?

 

But wait:  The OP started the post with "More and more children are dying in US custody.  The latest:"

That seems pretty disingenuous, considering the child wasn't in custody. 

 

There there was this comment - further, and falsely implying that the DHS was at fault: "

If the US allowed them in, gave them a court date, and then released them with their kids, then their parents are, and would remain, responsible for the health of their children."

Did the OP not read any article, or was this a deliberate attempt at sensationalism and agenda?

I can see where it "felt right" and they just went with it.

I'm hoping it wasn't the latter. 

 

 

[normiss 733]

I thought the article started with "4th kid to die".

I still don't understand when seeking asylum became illegal. Fleeing the conditions in their country is understandable, but they need to understand the risk of that journey as well. 

I always considered we were a welcoming country though. It's kinda what we are and always have been.

I wonder if France wants their statue back yet...

 

[Rick 67]

3 minutes ago, normiss said:

I thought the article started with "4th kid to die".

I still don't understand when seeking asylum became illegal. Fleeing the conditions in their country is understandable, but they need to understand the risk of that journey as well. 

I always considered we were a welcoming country though. It's kinda what we are and always have been.

I wonder if France wants their statue back yet...

 

the original post says "The boy, who was not identified, arrived at the border" kind of misleading when the facts are  "They were apprehended on April 3 on the north bank of the Rio Grande in central El Paso, " trying to sneak across the border.

they did not go to a border crossing seeking asylum they tried to sneak in illegally .

[turtlespeed 212]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

I thought the article started with "4th kid to die".

I still don't understand when seeking asylum became illegal. Fleeing the conditions in their country is understandable, but they need to understand the risk of that journey as well. 

I always considered we were a welcoming country though. It's kinda what we are and always have been.

I wonder if France wants their statue back yet...

 

Isn't it right next to that statue that they used to check you in as you entered?

[normiss 733]

Even accepted people without passports or any paperwork.

 

[normiss 733]

2 hours ago, Rick said:

the original post says "The boy, who was not identified, arrived at the border" kind of misleading when the facts are  "They were apprehended on April 3 on the north bank of the Rio Grande in central El Paso, " trying to sneak across the border.

they did not go to a border crossing seeking asylum they tried to sneak in illegally .

Geography is important. Wow.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 minute ago, normiss said:

Even accepted people without passports or any paperwork.

 

That was the law back then.

They followed the law.

 

[normiss 733]

Whew. You finally get it!

Just like the vast majority of them are doing now. Even in El Paso.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 minute ago, normiss said:

Geography is important. Wow.

Is there a difference in your mind if you:

1) Go camping and return the camping gear later because you can, not that it wasnt good camping gear, just that you didnt want to pay for it, or buy and use and don't return the gear?

2) Go to the store with the intention of getting free gum, knowing there probably isnt any free gum to have there, and leave with gum anyway?  Or Pay for the gum?

3) Go to a concert, and as you are walking to the entrance - see a side door, and duck in without a ticket?

Or, ignore the open door and get in line for the ticket booth?

[turtlespeed 212]

14 minutes ago, normiss said:

Whew. You finally get it!

Just like the vast majority of them are doing now. Even in El Paso.

I'm sorry - I don't think you do.

What does the vast majority have to do with a boy whose parents took on a fateful trip to do illegal things?

How does one get apprehended on the North side of the Rio Grande at the same time they are lawfully crossing the border?

This thread is about a sensationalized media story that "someone" posted trying to show us that a child died in custody, that he wasn't in.  In conditions that he wasn't in.

 

ETA : I suppose that the writers for NPR could be intentionally misleading us.

The article say they were apprehended crossing the border.  Then it says on the north bank - not - the north side of the border crossing facility.  Then it goes on to say that 58000 family members were apprehended last year - so - Either its shitty writing, or they were apprehended after crossing illegally.

 

But yeah - anyway - I was pretty embarrassed when I was called out on my Osama and Hillary picture - 

I admitted it and took the blame.

I know how that feels.

Lets see if anyone else can do it.  

Edited May 17, 2019 by turtlespeed

[normiss 733]

3 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

I'm sorry - I don't think you do.

What does the vast majority have to do with a boy whose parents took on a fateful trip to do illegal things?

How does one get apprehended on the North side of the Rio Grande at the same time they are lawfully crossing the border?

This thread is about a sensationalized media story that "someone" posted trying to show us that a child died in custody, that he wasn't in.  In conditions that he wasn't in.

 

ETA : I suppose that the writers for NPR could be intentionally misleading us.

The article say they were apprehended crossing the border.  Then it says on the north bank - not - the north side of the border crossing facility.  Then it goes on to say that 58000 family members were apprehended last year - so - Either its shitty writing, or they were apprehended after crossing illegally.

 

But yeah - anyway - I was pretty embarrassed when I was called out on my Osama and Hillary picture - 

I admitted it and took the blame.

I know how that feels.

Lets see if anyone else can do it.  

Asylum isn't illegal. It's what America is.

Media sensationalizes stories, it's their job. I didn't read the NPR version anyway, so I'm not even sure what you'er referring to. When I looked up the details there were plenty of sources available.

I would expect he did actually sleep on the ground during his trip to a better life.

They did cross at a legal point of entry. The North side of the Rio Grande IS the border - our side.

Weird how rivers are just that in SOOOOO many places.

It's not shitty writing, it's a shitty approach to immigration.

Much like my European ancestors.

Welcome to America.

Now back to your fear mongering hatred.