America First Energy Policy

[brenthutch 388]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

The figure compiled by The Times comprises a variety of government incentives, including grants, tax breaks, factory construction, discounted loans and environmental credits that Tesla can sell. It also includes tax credits and rebates to buyers of solar panels and electric cars.

One reason Tesla cares so much about California's air
The electric automaker Tesla has a side business. It's called environmental credits.
A looming question is whether the companies are moving toward self-sufficiency — as Dolev believes — and whether they can slash development costs before the public largesse ends.

Tesla and SolarCity continue to report net losses after a decade in business"

[airdvr 198]

brenthutch

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

The figure compiled by The Times comprises a variety of government incentives, including grants, tax breaks, factory construction, discounted loans and environmental credits that Tesla can sell. It also includes tax credits and rebates to buyers of solar panels and electric cars.

One reason Tesla cares so much about California's air
The electric automaker Tesla has a side business. It's called environmental credits.
A looming question is whether the companies are moving toward self-sufficiency — as Dolev believes — and whether they can slash development costs before the public largesse ends.

Tesla and SolarCity continue to report net losses after a decade in business"

All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,426]

>All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

And guys with small penises - and low IQ's - can buy big trucks! And rich assholes can launch stupid satellites. Ain't freedom great?

[gowlerk 1,923]

Quote

All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

I'm assuming that is the term you always use to describe someone who is successful in America.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

billvon

>All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

And guys with small penises - and low IQ's - can buy big trucks! And rich assholes can launch stupid satellites. Ain't freedom great?

It ain't exactly freedom, when the big truck guys are helping you afford your toy.

[gowlerk 1,923]

Quote

It ain't exactly freedom, when the big truck guys are helping you afford your toy.

Life has winners and losers. If the big truck guys are stupid enough to spend their cash that way it's their own fault. It's always been the right wing view that life is not fair and that smarter people will do better.

Why should this be different?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,426]

>It ain't exactly freedom, when the big truck guys are helping you afford your toy.

Or when my taxes pay for the tax breaks that go to the oil companies. Or when those big trucks get cheap gas because of the evil Obama efficiency initiatives. But hey, why ruin a perfectly good stereotype?

[billvon 2,426]

>A looming question is whether the companies are moving toward self-sufficiency —
>as Dolev believes — and whether they can slash development costs before the
>public largesse ends.

And whether he can get his "creative" financing model to work, that basically depends on everything working out perfectly (which it almost never does.) If he can swing it, he'll be remembered like Henry Ford is today. If not, he'll be remembered like Preston Tucker.

[brenthutch 388]

billvon

>It ain't exactly freedom, when the big truck guys are helping you afford your toy.

Or when my taxes pay for the tax breaks that go to the oil companies. Or when those big trucks get cheap gas because of the evil Obama efficiency initiatives. But hey, why ruin a perfectly good stereotype?

Exxon can't have very good tax breaks when they pay more than $30 billion a year in corporate income tax. How many billions did Tesla, First Solar, and SpaceX pay? How much do you contribute to the highway fund through fuel taxes My guess is somewhere around ZERO, but feel free to set me straight.

[airdvr 198]

gowlerk

Quote

All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

I'm assuming that is the term you always use to describe someone who is successful in America.

Not at all. I'm successful and not over priveleged.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[gowlerk 1,923]

airdvr

***

Quote

All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

I'm assuming that is the term you always use to describe someone who is successful in America.

Not at all. I'm successful and not over priveleged.


I'm only a little confused then. Are you saying people who chose to use some of their success to buy electric cars are douchebags?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

Persons (which of course include corporations) who take public money and then badmouth the entities which provide that money, do have a certain amount of doucheyness. Tesla, Leaf and Volt drivers travel on the roads paid for by "big truck" drivers, while not contributing to the funding mechanism which pay for those roads. SpaceX, First Solar and Tesla (the company) are subsidized by the taxes paid by "big oil." A classic example of makers vs. takers (with a tincture of douche).

[gowlerk 1,923]

brenthutch

Persons (which of course include corporations) who take public money and then badmouth the entities which provide that money, do have a certain amount of doucheyness. Tesla, Leaf and Volt drivers travel on the roads paid for by "big truck" drivers, while not contributing to the funding mechanism which pay for those roads. SpaceX, First Solar and Tesla (the company) are subsidized by the taxes paid by "big oil." A classic example of makers vs. takers.

If you are going to take that view then every American who uses any public facility has a certain amount of "douchyness". The list of things used by those who allow others to partly pay for it is very long. But let's just start with skydivers who mostly use publicly funded airports for their douchy fun.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

No the doucheness come in when one bad mouths "big oil" and " big truck."

To continue your airport analogy; it would be like some glider guys showing up to the airport with a solar powered ground launch, and talking smack to the skydivers who pay for tank after tank of 100LL

[airdvr 198]

gowlerk

******

Quote

All so over priveleged douchebags can have an electric toy.

I'm assuming that is the term you always use to describe someone who is successful in America.

Not at all. I'm successful and not over priveleged.

I'm only a little confused then. Are you saying people who chose to use some of their success to buy electric cars are douchebags?

Absolutely not. What I'm saying is the taxpayers have propped up Tesla from the beginning. I think tax credits make sense to help a fledgling technology get off the ground. I don't like my tax dollars being given to people so they can buy a $100,000 toy. If you combine the tax credit of $7,500.00 along with the sale of green credits and even more government money to build SolarCity...

Quote

The subsidies have generally been disclosed in public records and company filings. But the full scope of the public assistance hasn't been tallied because it has been granted over time from different levels of government.

New York state is spending $750 million to build a solar panel factory in Buffalo for SolarCity. The San Mateo, Calif.-based company will lease the plant for $1 a year. It will not pay property taxes for a decade, which would otherwise total an estimated $260 million.

The federal government also provides grants or tax credits to cover 30% of the cost of solar installations. SolarCity reported receiving $497.5 million in direct grants from the Treasury Department.

That figure, however, doesn't capture the full value of the government's support.

Since 2006, SolarCity has installed systems for 217,595 customers, according to a corporate filing. If each paid the current average price for a residential system — about $23,000, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists — the cost to the government would total about $1.5 billion, which would include the Treasury grants paid to SolarCity.

Nevada has agreed to provide Tesla with $1.3 billion in incentives to help build a massive battery factory near Reno.

The Palo Alto company has also collected more than $517 million from competing automakers by selling environmental credits. In a regulatory system pioneered by California and adopted by nine other states, automakers must buy the credits if they fail to sell enough zero-emissions cars to meet mandates. The tally also includes some federal environmental credits.

The benefactors of this set up are Tesla, it's stockholders, and the over-privileged douche bags who buy the car. If you can afford a $100K automobile you don't need $7,500 from the government.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[brenthutch 388]

+1
"Nevada has agreed to provide Tesla with $1.3 billion in incentives to help build a massive battery factory near Reno."

I must have missed the report of Pennsylvania providing Range Resources with $1.3 billion to develop Marcellus shale gas.

[gowlerk 1,923]

brenthutch

+1
"Nevada has agreed to provide Tesla with $1.3 billion in incentives to help build a massive battery factory near Reno."

I must have missed the report of Pennsylvania providing Range Resources with $1.3 billion to develop Marcellus shale gas.

Here is a more comprehensive story about Elon Musk subsidies.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

The man is visionary, and a force. I'm reasonable sure he is sincere, and that his efforts will advance society. But his companies could easily fail if government policies change. I would not consider buying stock in any of them.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,923]

Quote

The benefactors of this set up are Tesla, it's stockholders, and the over-privileged douche bags who buy the car. If you can afford a $100K automobile you don't need $7,500 from the government.

Nevada's Republican governor negotiated and signed a huge subsidy deal with Tesla. I'm pretty sure his motive was not supplying toys to douchy rich guys.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

What was his motivation?

[gowlerk 1,923]

brenthutch

What was his motivation?

The main one was:

Quote

The governor's office estimates the 5 million-square-foot factory will create an immediate 3,000 construction jobs, 6,500 factory jobs and 16,000 indirect jobs once completed.

http://fortune.com/2014/09/12/nevada-gov-sandoval-signs-off-on-1-3-billion-tax-break-for-tesla/

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

Fracking has produced more jobs for less cost at a greater benefit.

[gowlerk 1,923]

brenthutch

Fracking has produced more jobs for less cost at a greater benefit.

Largely irrelevant to the governor of Nevada......

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

brenthutch

No the doucheness come in when one bad mouths "big oil" and " big truck."

To continue your airport analogy; it would be like some glider guys showing up to the airport with a solar powered ground launch, and talking smack to the skydivers who pay for tank after tank of 100LL

Bump

[gowlerk 1,923]

brenthutch

***No the doucheness come in when one bad mouths "big oil" and " big truck."

To continue your airport analogy; it would be like some glider guys showing up to the airport with a solar powered ground launch, and talking smack to the skydivers who pay for tank after tank of 100LL

Bump

Well, that's kind of a stretch now isn't it? There must be at least 10 or so solar powered aircraft in the world! I've seen DZ operators who have their own tanks, and bypass the airport operator completely. Other pilots talk smack about the "meat bombs" all the time.

Where were we? Oh yea, you think Tesla owners are douches who don't respect other people and their tax burden. Have you had one of these terrible rich men talk down to you? Because I suspect that you have not and this is just something you are saying to express your resentment. Or was it airdvr who started with the name calling? Either way, driving a Tesla does not make a man a douche, or a woman either.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

brenthutch

Persons (which of course include corporations) who take public money and then badmouth the entities which provide that money, do have a certain amount of doucheyness. Tesla, Leaf and Volt drivers travel on the roads paid for by "big truck" drivers, while not contributing to the funding mechanism which pay for those roads. SpaceX, First Solar and Tesla (the company) are subsidized by the taxes paid by "big oil." A classic example of makers vs. takers (with a tincture of douche).

Can't you read?