Time for America to have a "World Tax?"

[jgoose71 0]

It works like this. If you want the U.S. to possibly bail you out of a shitty situation, we will only come and help if you paid your tax.

Georgia or Ukraine gets invaded and wants help? Did you pay your tax?

Your country gets hit with a Typhoon, Hurricane, Cyclone, Earthquake and tsunami? Did you pay your tax?

Have a humanitarian crisis? Did a nuclear reactor melt down in your country? Did you pay your tax?

Being over ran by Taliban?You want the U.S. to join your coalition to over throw Gaddafi? Did you pay your tax?

Who pays more foreign aide than any other country? Who's contributes more to the U.N. than any other country?

And who bears the brunt of these costs and what is it doing to that country?

And then when Katrina hit, we get a lot of "pledged help" but very little actually gets done.

Quote

An article in the April 29, 2007 Washington Post claimed that of the $854 million offered by foreign countries, whom the article dubs "allies," to the US Government, only $40 million of the funds had been spent "for disaster victims or reconstruction" as of the date of publication (less than 5%).

Additionally, a large portion of the $854 million in aid offered went uncollected, including over $400 million in oil (almost 50%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

And we'll just pretend that Hurricane Sandy never happened.

To be clear, the last thing I want is for America to Isolate it's self. Just throwing this out for discussion.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[aphid 0]

jgoose71

Who pays more foreign aide than any other country?

Foreign Aid: Country (Rank)

Total Dollars: USA (1), UK (2)
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid#Official_development_assistance_by_country_in_absolute_terms_in_2012_.28April_2013.29

Aid relative to GDP: Denmark (1), USA (19)
source: http://www.princeton.edu/~soapbox/vol2no4/24noveck.html

Aid per capita: Norway (1), USA (16)
source: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

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And then when Katrina hit, we get a lot of "pledged help" but very little actually gets done.

"September 5, 35 military divers were poised to depart by air Sunday from Halifax and Esquimalt, B.C., for the New Orleans area. September 4, On the request from U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Canada sent thousands of beds, blankets, surgical gloves and dressings and other medical supplies. On September 2 the Government of Canada announced it was sending three warships along with a Coast Guard vessel, and three Sea King helicopters to the area. Over 1,000 personnel are involved in the operation, including engineers and navy divers. The Canadian Heavy Urban Search and Rescue out of Vancouver was in Louisiana from September 1, due to security they started their mission on Sept 3. Ontario Hydro, Hydro-Québec, and Manitoba Hydro, along with other electrical utilities, had crews set to go to the affected areas. On September 2 Air Canada participated along with U.S. member airlines of the Air Transport Association, in a voluntary airline industry initiative to support rescue and relief operations. Money donations although were very high, the province of Alberta alone threw in 5 million dollars. Although it is hard to put an exact number on Canadian cash donations because of some Canadians donating directly to the American agencies, Canada is widely believed to be the highest international donor nation, and with Mexico was one of the two countries in the world to supply direct military assistance in addition to civilian donations and supplies as the US Government declined direct military support from all other nations."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

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And we'll just pretend that Hurricane Sandy never happened.

Hurricane Sandy didn't pay attention to border lines on a map so some of your friends and neighbours were kinda busy themselves.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Sandy#Impact

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Who's contributes more to the U.N. than any other country?

"The Administrative and Budgetary (Fifth) Committee of the UN General Assembly decides on the scale of assessments for contributions to the Regular Budget every third year. The scale of assessments reflects a country's capacity to pay (measured by factors such as a country's national income and size of population).
The Peacekeeping Budget assessments are based on the Regular Budget rates, but with discounts for poor countries. The five permanent members of the Security Council, who approve all peacekeeping operations, pay extra fees to compensate for those discounts. A "ceiling" rate sets the maximum amount of any member state's assessed share of the Regular and Peacekeeping Budgets. The US is the only member that is affected by those ceilings. Consequently the US pays less than its share of the world economy. (There is also a minimum rate of 0.001% to the Regular Budget for poor countries.) "

source: https://www.globalpolicy.org/un-finance/tables-and-charts-on-un-finance/member-states-assessed-share-of-the-un-budget.html


BTW: I don't necessarily disagree with your posture. I do hope though it would then display an equal reluctance to mess around in foreign countries sovereign issues.

[billvon 2,400]

>It works like this. If you want the U.S. to possibly bail you out of a shitty
>situation, we will only come and help if you paid your tax.

So if (for example) Iraq refused to pay this tax, they could get us to leave?

I could see this being very, very popular. Everyone would sign up and then immediately refuse to pay the tax, then shake the hands of all the Americans leaving their military bases, embassies etc etc.

[cgriff 0]

billvon

Everyone would sign up and then immediately refuse to pay the tax, then shake the hands of all the Americans leaving their military bases, embassies etc etc.

I'm sold! Let's do it!

[jgoose71 0]

Hi Aphid,

To be fair, Canada doesn't have as big of military as the the U.S. either. If we weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police" we could probably afford to give even more dollars in aid and have a Single Payer Health care system that works to boot.

Kind of the point of this post. The rest of the world gets to sit back and enjoy the benefits of having an America a part of it.

Imagine if Canada had to project it's power to maintain it's safety and security?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

cgriff

***Everyone would sign up and then immediately refuse to pay the tax, then shake the hands of all the Americans leaving their military bases, embassies etc etc.

I'm sold! Let's do it!

It's a novel idea, but a lot of countries would have a shit fit if we removed our military bases and left them open to some of their neighbors.

Do you think it's a good idea to tell some of these countries could fend for themselves? What do you think the Indian Ocean would look like if we stopped patrolling there? Do you think Seychelles could defend it's own waters?

Do you think that it's OK for us to ask for a little something in return?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,400]

>To be fair, Canada doesn't have as big of military as the the U.S. either. If we
>weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police" we could
>probably afford to give even more dollars in aid and have a Single Payer Health
>care system that works to boot.

Since we are the ones who choose to be Team America, that's our fault, not the fault of countries that get hit by disasters.

>Imagine if Canada had to project it's power to maintain it's safety and security?

They'd be in as big a budget hole as we are.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

If we weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police" we could probably afford to give even more dollars in aid and have a Single Payer Health care system that works to boot. ... The rest of the world gets to sit back and enjoy the benefits of having an America a part of it.

And that's worth repeating.

I'm tired of subsidizing Western Europe's socialized medicine and security umbrella, while for so many Americans decent (or even "any") health insurance is so hard to get and so easy to lose, while the Dick Cheneys and Halliburtons of the US pay Fox News to convince good-faith (albeit gullible ) conservatives that any other alternative is Communist.

[billvon 2,400]

>It's a novel idea, but a lot of countries would have a shit fit if we removed
>our military bases and left them open to some of their neighbors.

That's fine. Let them have a shit fit. They have them regularly anyway.

>Do you think it's a good idea to tell some of these countries could fend for
>themselves?

Yes.

>What do you think the Indian Ocean would look like if we stopped patrolling there?

Quite different. Less Americanized. More violence.

>Do you think Seychelles could defend it's own waters?

Nope. I would expect they'd get defense support from India or Oman in return for something. Or perhaps they'd create a military sufficient to defend their islands, and negotiate treaties with people who might attack them. Up to them - not us.

>Do you think that it's OK for us to ask for a little something in return?

No. It is not OK to ask for "a little something" when what you give is not asked for (and in many cases not wanted.)

When a neighborhood gang takes over part of a city, and asks storeowners for "a little something" for protection, we often arrest such people. We should apply the same standards to ourselves.

[Southern_Man 0]

jgoose71

Hi Aphid,

To be fair, Canada doesn't have as big of military as the the U.S. either. If we weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police"

We aren't stuck. We choose to play that role.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[weekender 0]

billvon

>To be fair, Canada doesn't have as big of military as the the U.S. either. If we
>weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police" we could
>probably afford to give even more dollars in aid and have a Single Payer Health
>care system that works to boot.

Since we are the ones who choose to be Team America, that's our fault, not the fault of countries that get hit by disasters.

>Imagine if Canada had to project it's power to maintain it's safety and security?

They'd be in as big a budget hole as we are.

i agree its our choice. i dont think anyone mentioned that we dont do it because we are altruistic. we do it because we believe its in the best interest of our nation. im not being critical, its a reasonable stance.

so IMO the tax is silly. we felt it was in our best interest to invade Iraq. no matter of a tax, if you sit on a huge supply of oil and we feel its in our interest to protect it, we will. or historically we have.

im not making claim that any of our wars are right or wrong. im stating the tax is silly since we should make a decision based on our own self interest.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

im not making claim that any of our wars are right or wrong. im stating the tax is silly since we should make a decision based on our own self interest.

Self interest in the short term, or long term? Like investing choices, timeframe matters.

In the short term, we and our allies benefit from all this spending. But in the longer term, they benefit while we're going broke. And it's not that "long" term anymore. So we're in the situation where either we need to stop doing it, or they need to chip in.

[jakee 1,255]

jgoose71

To be fair, Canada doesn't have as big of military as the the U.S. either. If we weren't stuck in the role of playing "Team America, World Police" we could probably afford to give even more dollars in aid and have a Single Payer Health care system that works to boot.

You're not stuck in that role except by choice. Also, a huge amount of military spending in the US is still going towards fighting the cold war. How much does a ballistic missile submarine cost and what does it do these days?

Quote

Imagine if Canada had to project it's power to maintain it's safety and security?

No one needs to project as much power as the US does.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***
im not making claim that any of our wars are right or wrong. im stating the tax is silly since we should make a decision based on our own self interest.

Self interest in the short term, or long term? Like investing choices, timeframe matters.

In the short term, we and our allies benefit from all this spending. But in the longer term, they benefit while we're going broke. And it's not that "long" term anymore. So we're in the situation where either we need to stop doing it, or they need to chip in.

you got me. i dont really know how we should compensate ourselves for doing what we feel is in our own self interests. i would say any amount was worth defeating the Axis powers in the 1940's. was Iraq worth anything? IMO, probably little at this point.

sorry, i dont have a good answer to your question. i just think the tax idea is silly. we should make decisions based on what we think is best, weighing costs. i dont feel we need compensation from Allies.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Andy9o8 0]

Remember the good old days when we (especially you ) would go into other countries and just take all their shit? It was called "imperialism" at the time. Even accounting for the occasional write-offs (like the Colonists opening a can of Whup-Ass on you), I'll bet that on the overall it paid off on the investment at least 10 to 1.

Yeah, back in the day.

[jakee 1,255]

Hey, they had it and we wanted it. Something's gotta give, amirite?

But for sure, in the present day the US is by no means alone in it's outmoded military thinking based around wars that will never be fought.

Heck, in the UK we're currently building two aircraft carriers that will be about 2/3 the size of a Nimitz class ship (seriously, who the fuck do we think we are that we need that?). To pay for this we have scrapped our two affordable and useful Invincible class carriers and effectively confined to harbour the rest of our surface fleet. The (relatively) small, versatile, rapidly deployable vessels that can provide support to several brushwars or humanitarian situations at once. Y'know, the modern world. Best case scenario for the new ships appears to be to sail to one place and fight one big battle (though how they plan to even pay for the kerosene to get them anywhere is uncertain. I assume they're just going to lay up next to various foreign oil refineries on the way and pull a Blanche DuBois) which is what we might have needed in the 1980's.

The budget for the construction alone for the carriers was £7Bn, so lets be charitable and assume that once finished they'll have cost around £20Bn. Even before a single steel was laid on the second ship a defence review decided it was too expensive to operate, but due to clauses in the construction contract we'd have needed to pay more to BAE Systems (who we know pay huge bribes for contracts to Johnny Foreigner but somehow trust in domestic matters) to cancel than to build it. So it's being built to be mothballed. The second ship is planned to be operational by 2020, so let's be charitable and say 2025 (I'd lay good money on that one never seeing service either) and is going to be capable of sailing with around 40 F35's. How many F35's have the UK currently ordered? 9.

Hnestly, I hope there are some politicians and civil servants getting seriously rich off the back of this because if it was a result of honest incompetence rather than seething corruption I don't think I could process the level of stupidity required.

Anyway, just converting for scale, take that story, apply it to the US and multiply by 11. Everything's better when it goes to 11.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[champu 1]

jakee

Anyway, just converting for scale, take that story, apply it to the US and multiply by 11. Everything's better when it goes to 11.

...well why don't you guys just spend a little more, and then make our story your story multiplied by ten? Then 10x will be our story.

[jakee 1,255]

champu

***Anyway, just converting for scale, take that story, apply it to the US and multiply by 11. Everything's better when it goes to 11.

...well why don't you guys just spend a little more, and then make our story your story multiplied by ten?

Because this one goes to eleven.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jgoose71 0]

billvon

>Do you think that it's OK for us to ask for a little something in return?

No. It is not OK to ask for "a little something" when what you give is not asked for (and in many cases not wanted.)

When a neighborhood gang takes over part of a city, and asks storeowners for "a little something" for protection, we often arrest such people. We should apply the same standards to ourselves.

I'm not suggesting that we become street thugs shaking down the local store owners.

The world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check. The U.S. can not keep the status quo.

Back in the 60's and 70's when we were the biggest industrialized nation as the rest of the world was still recovering from WW II, we could.

But as the rest of the world recovered and was able to start competing against our economy through the late 70's, 80's and present day, things are changing. Everyone has gotten used to the U.S. being there covering shit that they should be able to do on there own now.

It's the moral equivalent to the kids moving out, saying how good they are doing while mommy and daddy are still covering part of the bills.

As jakee pointed out above, the UK is stepping up, but a lot of people still are not. As Obama slowly removes the U.S. from the worlds scene, you are seeing Syria and Iraq in turmoil, Northern Africa burning, Israel being attacked from all sides, Russia bullying it's neighbors, and when we pull out of Afghanistan, I would expect nothing less than what we have already seen.

So to keep the world at peace, either the rest of the world has to step up or the U.S. has to keep doing what it's doing. And as I've said, to the U.S., it's not sustainable. That's why I was thinking about how well a tax on the rest of the world might work, because the rest of the world seems to be taxing us.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 2,400]

>The world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check.

And that's exactly what we hear from said thugs. "It's for your own protection - there's a lot of bad guys out there. Not us! We would never attack you; we're here to protect you. You wouldn't last five minutes without us. We're just asking for a little something in return."

Of course there are always strings attached.

>It's the moral equivalent to the kids moving out, saying how good they are doing
>while mommy and daddy are still covering part of the bills.

Exactly. And whose fault is that? Mommy and Daddy's. They will never be able to stand on their own until their parents stop supporting them. But some parents just can't believe that their little Jimmyistan could ever live life as an adult.

It's part of being a responsible adult to let other people be responsible adults as well.

> As Obama slowly removes the U.S. from the worlds scene, you are seeing Syria
>and Iraq in turmoil, Northern Africa burning, Israel being attacked from all sides,
>Russia bullying it's neighbors, and when we pull out of Afghanistan, I would
>expect nothing less than what we have already seen.

Yep. Jimmyistan might have to be evicted from his apartment - then he will learn to pay his rent on time. He might even have to have the shit beat out of him by the drug dealers that Mommy and Daddy used to (indirectly) pay.

Again, the solution is not to pay for the kids for the rest of their lives. The solution is to let them become adults independently. You may not like their choices - but they are their choices to make.

[jgoose71 0]

billvon

>The world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check.

And that's exactly what we hear from said thugs. "It's for your own protection - there's a lot of bad guys out there. Not us! We would never attack you; we're here to protect you. You wouldn't last five minutes without us. We're just asking for a little something in return."

Of course there are always strings attached.

I was suggesting more of a goods for services kind of a deal. Most thugs only offer protection from themselves. A little bit of a difference there. But you are right, this would be enforced by our federal government....

billvon

Yep. Jimmyistan might have to be evicted from his apartment - then he will learn to pay his rent on time. He might even have to have the shit beat out of him by the drug dealers that Mommy and Daddy used to (indirectly) pay.

And when the time comes (and it will) when Jimmyistan starts getting bullied, do you think that our Government will have the conviction to cut the strings and say no?

We tend to buckle under the court of world opinion. We get people screaming "think of the children" and "somebody should do something" and then we are right back where we started... broke playing world police...

And then there is our interests also, when we can no longer trade with other counties and we can't manufacture anything any more.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[GD64 1]

I agree with the concept of getting the hell out of other countries business. But a world tax? My first thought was what bureaucrat/politico could be trusted with all that money? Seems like a situation that would be ripe for cronyism, extortions, bribery, intimidation, and just out right theft (UN is a classic example.....how many Mercedes did Koffeinan (spell?) and his son end up with, as well as many, many other examples)?
However, I'm sure those shovel ready projects would show up if this was implemented........new buildings for bureaucrats (with no expense spared and I'm sure built on some of the most expensive real estate in the world), six and seven figure salaries, pensions at one hundred and thirty percent of salary, luxury car, unlimited travel for friends and family as well, high end booze, whores, unionized workers to staff these buildings, maybe a few months of work er where you have to be seen bullshitting but calling it work, and of course everyone is above the law.
Sounds kind of familiar and I still haven't thought of a single bureaucrat/politico that I could trust with all that coin.

[jakee 1,255]

Quote

As jakee pointed out above, the UK is stepping up,

Oh good lord that was so not my point. Did you think that was my point? That was not my point.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jgoose71 0]

jakee

Quote

As jakee pointed out above, the UK is stepping up,

Oh good lord that was so not my point. Did you think that was my point? That was not my point.

While it may not have been your point, but the UK is slowly building up it's military, and since you are a stone's throw from the middle east (at least closer than the U.S.) and we are slowly withdrawing from the world under Obama...

You will need that.....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

GD64

I agree with the concept of getting the hell out of other countries business. But a world tax? My first thought was what bureaucrat/politico could be trusted with all that money? Seems like a situation that would be ripe for cronyism, extortions, bribery, intimidation, and just out right theft (UN is a classic example.....how many Mercedes did Koffeinan (spell?) and his son end up with, as well as many, many other examples)?
However, I'm sure those shovel ready projects would show up if this was implemented........new buildings for bureaucrats (with no expense spared and I'm sure built on some of the most expensive real estate in the world), six and seven figure salaries, pensions at one hundred and thirty percent of salary, luxury car, unlimited travel for friends and family as well, high end booze, whores, unionized workers to staff these buildings, maybe a few months of work er where you have to be seen bullshitting but calling it work, and of course everyone is above the law.
Sounds kind of familiar and I still haven't thought of a single bureaucrat/politico that I could trust with all that coin.

You are right. The idea of a world tax is just a passing thought to help ease the burden of America's roll in the world.

But as America's voters get dumber and dumber and the government gets bigger with the media has stopped doing it's job, I don't think we will be able to hold our government accountable for much longer either. Politicians lie on TV all day long and if it's in line with the news agencies ideals, it won't get reported.

Oh well, Bush's and Clintons forever! Hail the new ruling class!

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything