Long range shooting?

[steve1 5]

There's a bunch of very knowledgeable people on here who know a lot about guns. I have several questions relating to long range shooting. I'd like to pick your brains some. I miss John's advice. Not sure what happened to him.

A while back all copper bullets were brought up. Someone mentioned that they won't shoot as flat as lead core bullets. Is that true?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

steve1

There's a bunch of very knowledgeable people on here who know a lot about guns. I have several questions relating to long range shooting. I'd like to pick your brains some. I miss John's advice. Not sure what happened to him.

A while back all copper bullets were brought up. Someone mentioned that they won't shoot as flat as lead core bullets. Is that true?

Well, copper is less dense than lead. So a similar sized and shaped copper bullet will weigh less than a lead one.

So it will have less energy, and will slow down faster than a similar lead one.

So, it won't carry as far, and will have a greater drop (not as flat).

BUT bullet designers know this, and play with the bullet design to make them fly better (better coefficient of drag) or make them longer to make them heavier, or a few other things.

Copper also is stronger than lead, so it can be driven faster without disintegration problems. And it's velocity that really determines drop, arc and "flatness."

So the best answer to your question is "Sort of, but it depends."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

What kind of distance are you going for Steve?

What are you using to get there?


I have a kick-ass MA-1 setup for 1000yd comp, fun & very challenging shooting that far without glass.

OTOH - fun playin' out in the scrubs with my 22-250 Ruger, the glass on IT cost more than the rifle...good for prairie dogs but not much of anything bigger.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davjohns 1]

There are so many other variables to account for before you worry about something that essoteric. If you look it up, I'm sure you will find a hotly debated topic. But useless to most people.

I've shot precision for years. I've done some long range work. For the most part, any match grade hardware wtih match grade ammo can out-shoot me. So, I don't worry about what it could theoretically do. In real life, I will never know how good the rifle and ammo are.

Sorry I didn't really answer your question. The prior poster hit the high points. "It depends" is often the correct answer. After that, you can get lots of conflicting opinions.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[airtwardo 6]

You went full circle with that post...


Yup - you can drive copper WAY faster than lead core, it all becomes a trade off of sorts. IMO - copper also seems to be affected by wind a bit more, even when going that much faster.

It kind of all depends what you're doing and with what...

.308 & 30-06 - for messing around at the range, I cast my own - playing with the alloys going into the pot I can get a VERY hard bullet that won't lead the barrel, weighs 20% less than the mould design using straight lead/tin mix...crimp a gas cap on the tail end & at the right speed they're every bit as good as Sierra's top shelf for what 'most' weekend shooters do...@ 1/10th the cost.

Wouldn't shoot a money match with them though...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

airtwardo

You went full circle with that post...


Yup - you can drive copper WAY faster than lead core, it all becomes a trade off of sorts. IMO - copper also seems to be affected by wind a bit more, even when going that much faster.

It kind of all depends what you're doing and with what...for messing around at the range, I cast my own - playing with the alloys going into the pot I can get a VERY hard bullet that won't lead the barrel, weighs 20% less than the mould design using straight lead/tin mix...crimp a gas cap on the tail end & at the right speed they're every bit as good as Sierra's top shelf for what 'most' weekend shooters do...@ 1/10th the cost.

Wouldn't shoot a money match with them though...

Well, the one thing that I've learned about ballistics, loading, and bullet performance is that everything is a tradeoff.

And that often, those tradeoffs can cancel out and leave you exactly where you started.

I volunteer as a range officer at the local range, and see a lot of interesting stuff. We have a few guys that are very "detail oriented" with their stuff.
I learn a lot from them.
We only go out to 100 yards, so I don't have much experience shooting beyond that, but we have guys who will shoot groups well under an inch (5 shots all touching) on a regular basis, once the rifle and load are dialed in.

I started casting my own pistol bullets in the last couple of years. Tapping into the "knowledge pool" was invaluable for me. I was able to learn all I needed, get a lot of "Don't do what I did" suggestions, and even get a few odds and ends (like a couple pounds of beeswax for flux) from people who had extras.
I even have a huge supply of free lead - the range has been there for a long time, and I can get all I need.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

airtwardo

What kind of distance are you going for Steve?

What are you using to get there?


I have a kick-ass MA-1 setup for 1000yd comp, fun & very challenging shooting that far without glass.

OTOH - fun playin' out in the scrubs with my 22-250 Ruger, the glass on IT cost more than the rifle...good for prairie dogs but not much of anything bigger.

I thought I knew a fair amount about long range shooting, but the more I learn, the more questions I have.

I've got a couple 270's and a 30/06 that I've worked up accuracy loads for. I recently shot a 1/4 inch, four shot group (at 100 yards) with one of those 270's. I have to admit that is the tightest group I've ever shot. I have that target on my office wall.

I'm working with a 300 magnum right now. It's got a 26 inch barrel, Remington 700, three pound trigger, glass bedded action, floated barrel. I've never owned a long range scope. Without good glass accuracy at long range is tough.

I just ordered a Vortex 3X16X50 mm. It's not the best quality, but I didn't want to spend more than $700. right now. Maybe someday I'll buy a Night Force or Schmidt and Bender. But I'll probably have to win the lottery first.

I like the sounds of copper bullets, but I'll probably stick with Lead core bullets for the time being. Incidently I shot that 1/4 inch group with Nosler Accu-bond bullet. That is a hunting bullet not a match bullet, so I was tickled to find a load like that. I need to do some more experimenting.....

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

steve1

I thought I knew a fair amount about long range shooting, but the more I learn, the more questions I have.

I've got a couple 270's and a 30/06 that I've worked up accuracy loads for. I recently shot a 1/4 inch, four shot group (at 100 yards) with one of those 270's. I have to admit that is the tightest group I've ever shot. I have that target on my office wall.

I'm working with a 300 magnum right now. It's got a 26 inch barrel, Remington 700, three pound trigger, glass bedded action, floated barrel. I've never owned a long range scope. Without good glass accuracy at long range is tough.

I just ordered a Vortex 3X16X50 mm. It's not the best quality, but I didn't want to spend more than $700. right now. Maybe someday I'll buy a Night Force or Schmidt and Bender. But I'll probably have to win the lottery first.

I like the sounds of copper bullets, but I'll probably stick with Lead core bullets for the time being. Incidently I shot that 1/4 inch group with Nosler Accu-bond bullet. That is a hunting bullet not a match bullet, so I was tickled to find a load like that. I need to do some more experimenting.....

I know what you mean. Every answer you find generates two or three more questions. The more I learn, the more I find how little I actually know.

A good rule of thumb for scopes is to spend as much for the glass as you did for the rifle.

And the line between "hunting" and "match" bullets is getting very blurred. The technology to make a very accurate bullet that expands well is amazing.

I sometimes get asked "What do you think will shoot best in this?"
The only answer I can give is to try different types and weights until they find out.

We have one regular shooter who has a hobby of finding the best possible load for a rifle.
He will get a rifle off the used rack at the store, do a little work on it (bedding, bolt lugs, trigger) and then work up a load. He might start with 6 or 7 different powders, 5 or 6 different bullet brands, 5 or 6 weights of each brand. He keeps narrowing it down until he finds the very best load for that rifle. 1/2" or smaller 100 yard groups (every group, not just some of them).

Then he's done, so he sells it. And starts over with a different one.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

We have one regular shooter who has a hobby of finding the best possible load for a rifle.

I have an ole buddy like that...jumper too!

Down to a freakin' science...bullet, brass, powder & primer...polishes the chamber, gauges the muzzle profile for square, depths the rifling...on & on.

1/2 the time I just smile & nod...no IDEA what he talking about.

I tried for the longest time to get a 'happy' load for a Nation Match Garand...he took the rifle for two weeks, probably fired 150 rounds & came up with a nail driver for me...I didn't know that thing COULD do what it's doing!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steve1 5]

It's really amazing the difference a variable can make on accuracy. That 270 I mentioned, was grouping around an inch at a 100 yards. I went 1/2 grain hotter and shot a 1/4 inch group.

Probably the greatest accuracy trick I've found is loading the bullet out to almost touch the lands. That almost always improves accuracy.

Some tricks don't seem to make a whole lot of difference. Taking notes and being scientific and exact is important though.

Sometimes you'll get a rifle that just won't group like it should, no matter what you do. I gave up on one rifle that should have been a shooter. Maybe it had a poor barrel.

I've always had good luck with Remington 700's. Savage makes a good out of the box rifle. With some tinkering they usually shoot well.

The big unknown for me now is estimating range. That is critcal for long range shooting.

I know the military uses a mil dot reticle. The scope I ordered is minute of angle. I hope to use that to help estimate range. I never was a whiz at math, so I'm going to have to work at figuring all that out....

[chutem 0]

New owner of a Howa 1500 in .308 here with pretty much zero rifle experience other than .22 benchrest, any suggestions for good reading material? I'm mostly interested in mid to longish range stuff.

My first trip out with it after playing with the scope I'm shooting about 5 inch groups at 200 yards with the occasional flyer. No doubt that the lose nut behind the trigger is the weak link here.

Also I reload pistol stuff on a Dillon Square Deal press that will not handle rifle length. Suggestions for a press to handle rifle cartridges? I may just look at selling my Square Deal and buying a 550.

[airtwardo 6]

chutem

New owner of a Howa 1500 in .308 here with pretty much zero rifle experience other than .22 benchrest, any suggestions for good reading material? I'm mostly interested in mid to longish range stuff.

My first trip out with it after playing with the scope I'm shooting about 5 inch groups at 200 yards with the occasional flyer. No doubt that the lose nut behind the trigger is the weak link here.

Also I reload pistol stuff on a Dillon Square Deal press that will not handle rifle length. Suggestions for a press to handle rifle cartridges? I may just look at selling my Square Deal and buying a 550.

If you're going to reload rifle for accuracy, I would just get a simple 'C' press - single die in the top at a time kinda thing.

Progressive presses are great for pistol plinking, but I try to be real consistent with rifle - harder to do with a bunch of stuff going' on at the same time.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[regulator 0]

I have a remington model 700 chambered in .308 but like the other suggestion of spending as much on the glass as you do on the rifle...well I've got a nice model 700 with no scope on it yet. It's definately on the to do list. I was pondering shooting around 300 yards at the most, but if I can get tight groupings I might see about further distances...but for now...get a scope first!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

airtwardo

***

...Also I reload pistol stuff on a Dillon Square Deal press that will not handle rifle length. Suggestions for a press to handle rifle cartridges? I may just look at selling my Square Deal and buying a 550.

If you're going to reload rifle for accuracy, I would just get a simple 'C' press - single die in the top at a time kinda thing.

Progressive presses are great for pistol plinking, but I try to be real consistent with rifle - harder to do with a bunch of stuff going' on at the same time.

Going to disagree with you on that.

The 550 is a top-end press. Dillon did a few "articles" about how it can be used to create very, very consistent ammo. And consistency is the key to accuracy.

One problem with using a single stage press is that you have to change out the dies for each step. It's hard to get them back to exactly where they belong. Dillon uses a removable toolhead that allows the dies to be left in place.

The most important thing is case prep.
So you clean, size, trim, turn necks inside and out (if you go that far) and all the other stuff before - I use a single stage for that part. Then you take the fully prepped cases and run them through the progressive. As long as the powder is one that will meter well (not all do) then all is cool. If the powder charges need to be weighed out individually, then you slow down a smidge.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,384]

airtwardo

You went full circle with that post....308 & 30-06 - for messing around at the range, I cast my own - playing with the alloys going into the pot I can get a VERY hard bullet that won't lead the barrel,...

I didn't even know that was possible.
DAMMIT, I hate cleaning lead out of a barrel.
Before college when I was reloading pistol rounds, I bought lead bullets due to cost, then spent lots of time swearing while cleaning the barrels.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

ryoder

***You went full circle with that post....308 & 30-06 - for messing around at the range, I cast my own - playing with the alloys going into the pot I can get a VERY hard bullet that won't lead the barrel,...

I didn't even know that was possible.
DAMMIT, I hate cleaning lead out of a barrel.
Before college when I was reloading pistol rounds, I bought lead bullets due to cost, then spent lots of time swearing while cleaning the barrels.

It all depends on the mix.

And how you drive it.

I run a straight "range pickup mix" and drop the bullets out of the molds into a bucket of water. That gives me a hardness of between 14 and 15. I use the alox "Tumble Lube," one coat before sizing, one more after.

I push the 45s around 800fps or so.

The minor leading that I get comes out fairly easily with a stainless "tornado" brush.

Some people I know run a very hard mix (adding tin and antimony) and put the gas checks on the back (little metal discs to keep the fire away from the back of the bullet.
They can push the bullets up around 1800fps or so with manageable leading.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

I started reloading about fifty years ago. Yep, I'm an old fart, but then again I was only about 13 when I started. I got a RCBS standard press for Christmas one year. As long as I didn't blow the house up, it was okay with my Dad. That is still primarily the press I use today. I don't think it's even made any more. The RockChucker RCBS press would be a better, reasonably priced press. It's been made for a long time.

To be honest I don't reload nearly as much as some people, so I sure don't know it all.

I've never turned the necks. I don't have a tumbler to clean my brass. But I can still produce some very accurate ammo, that will shoot tiny groups.

I've got a powder measurer, and that speeds things up some..... I also weigh every charge to get them exact. A powder measurer sometimes thows inaccurate charges. A trickler is a big help with that. I set the powder measure a little light, and then trickle in a little more powder, (onto the scale) to get each charge exact.

I've only made one major mistake, over the years. One time I got a faster burning powder mixed up with a slower burning powder. I guess I'm lucky I didn't blow that rifle up. Make sure everything is labeled carefully. If you have a powder measure....label the powder in it.

Just my two cents worth.....Wolfriverjoe knows a ton about guns. He's set me straight more than once.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

steve1

I started reloading about fifty years ago. Yep, I'm an old fart, but then again I was only about 13 when I started. I got a RCBS standard press for Christmas one year. As long as I didn't blow the house up, it was okay with my Dad. That is still primarily the press I use today. I don't think it's even made any more. The RockChucker RCBS press would be a better, reasonably priced press. It's been made for a long time...

Just my two cents worth.....Wolfriverjoe knows a ton about guns. He's set me straight more than once.

RCBS is still around. Probably not the exact same anymore, but their single stage is as good as any. Their progressive press isn't as good as Dillon IMO, but it doesn't cost as much either.

I've got a couple sets of RCBS dies, Dillon sells them for calibers that they don't offer Dillon dies in.

And thanks. I like to think that I know some of what I'm talking about, I've been shooting and loading for a while too.

But go back and read the first line I wrote in post #8. I really don't know that much.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

Anybody know much about range finders. I've held off on buying one because I've heard that many give inaccurate readings. I'd like one that is accurate beyond 500 yards.

You can spend a ton of money on some of this gear.

I sometimes wonder if figuring out how big something is using your stadia lines or mil dots wouldn't be more accurate than many range finders.

Being able to accurately determine range may be the most difficult thing about long range shooting. If you are off a little you may miss.

Some shooters use a formula such as known size in inches X 100 divided by minutes of angle. You can use the stadia lines in your scope for this. Some formula's are quite complicated. One guy I know uses some type of slide rule. Some use hand held calculators. I hate the idea of doing some difficult math poblem before taking a shot. Maybe this would be easier after you got used to it.

I wonder what type of range finders the military uses. They seem to have some really expensive, good, gear these days.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

The laser rangefinders are very accurate. They usually have some sort of "accurate to" in the instructions of "+/- 'x'" (usually a percentage).

They also have a "maximum effective" which is usually under clear and dry conditions. Anything that affects visibility, like fog, haze or precipitation will reduce it.

And they have their "stupidity" limitations too. Kind of like a gun will go 'bang' when you tell it to, regardless of whether or not you meant it to, they will range whatever you point it at. So if there is a branch, or a small hump in the ground between you and your target, you may well range that instead of what you intend.

Ranging with the marks in the scope is pretty simple, and reasonably accurate. I learned it a long time ago, don't use it and have forgotten most of it. But there was an article on it in the NRA magazine in the last couple of months, it covered all the details and formulas.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

A quality range finder is probably going to be my next investment. I suppose you get what you pay for. I may watch e-bay for a quality range finder. I've heard tha Zeis is really good, but at the same time their warranty isn't for very long.

A buddy of mine bought a Vortex range finder, and he said it wasn't very good.

Thanks of the advice.

[sammer 0]

If you can find a good deal on an LTI unit like the trupulse 360, I think it will do what you want. I'm pretty sure they have supplied the military in the past, maybe still do.

You may know this, but the advertized range is usually to a reflective target and the useful range is probably less than half of that.

[steve1 5]

You guys are answering my questions....

What do you think about first focul plane versus second focul plane. If you would have asked me about that four weeks ago, I would have said, "What the hell is that?"

My new scope is a first focul plane scope. The stadia lines will measure one minute of angle no matter the power setting.

On my old second focul plane 3X9 scope, I had to always make sure I used nine power for sizing up game and targets. I used to use the width between the duplex reticles for that. It worked fairly well on deer sized game out to 500 yards.

[airtwardo 6]

wolfriverjoe

******

...Also I reload pistol stuff on a Dillon Square Deal press that will not handle rifle length. Suggestions for a press to handle rifle cartridges? I may just look at selling my Square Deal and buying a 550.

If you're going to reload rifle for accuracy, I would just get a simple 'C' press - single die in the top at a time kinda thing.

Progressive presses are great for pistol plinking, but I try to be real consistent with rifle - harder to do with a bunch of stuff going' on at the same time.

Going to disagree with you on that.

The 550 is a top-end press. Dillon did a few "articles" about how it can be used to create very, very consistent ammo. And consistency is the key to accuracy.

One problem with using a single stage press is that you have to change out the dies for each step. It's hard to get them back to exactly where they belong. Dillon uses a removable toolhead that allows the dies to be left in place.

The most important thing is case prep.
So you clean, size, trim, turn necks inside and out (if you go that far) and all the other stuff before - I use a single stage for that part. Then you take the fully prepped cases and run them through the progressive. As long as the powder is one that will meter well (not all do) then all is cool. If the powder charges need to be weighed out individually, then you slow down a smidge.

Like I said - if you're reloading 'plinking' ammo a progressive is great...but for match, I will make a run of say 300 rounds.

Each step exactly the same...trimmer, primer pocket deburred & flash hole sized, I measure case wall thickness - on & on for consistency

I have a couple different powder dispenser.... one is adjustable with a set screw, another uses those different sized collars...but - I weigh each & every load, so it's actually easier to use whatever Lee 'powder scoop' is close (but under what I want) and use the powder trickler thingie to bring it dead on.

Home-made bullet boards hold 75 rds, so I'll charge 75 - then set the bullet in those....charge 75 more...

Crimp the entire batch at the end.


~ like we were saying, LOTS of variables...the more of those you can 'standardize' so to speak the better you shoot...

1000 yards with iron sights is no time to be wondering if it's the variances in the ammo, the sights or the hangover causing all the flyers.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davjohns 1]

airtwardo

*********

...Also I reload pistol stuff on a Dillon Square Deal press that will not handle rifle length. Suggestions for a press to handle rifle cartridges? I may just look at selling my Square Deal and buying a 550.

If you're going to reload rifle for accuracy, I would just get a simple 'C' press - single die in the top at a time kinda thing.

Progressive presses are great for pistol plinking, but I try to be real consistent with rifle - harder to do with a bunch of stuff going' on at the same time.

Going to disagree with you on that.

The 550 is a top-end press. Dillon did a few "articles" about how it can be used to create very, very consistent ammo. And consistency is the key to accuracy.

One problem with using a single stage press is that you have to change out the dies for each step. It's hard to get them back to exactly where they belong. Dillon uses a removable toolhead that allows the dies to be left in place.

The most important thing is case prep.
So you clean, size, trim, turn necks inside and out (if you go that far) and all the other stuff before - I use a single stage for that part. Then you take the fully prepped cases and run them through the progressive. As long as the powder is one that will meter well (not all do) then all is cool. If the powder charges need to be weighed out individually, then you slow down a smidge.

Like I said - if you're reloading 'plinking' ammo a progressive is great...but for match, I will make a run of say 300 rounds.

Each step exactly the same...trimmer, primer pocket deburred & flash hole sized, I measure case wall thickness - on & on for consistency

I have a couple different powder dispenser.... one is adjustable with a set screw, another uses those different sized collars...but - I weigh each & every load, so it's actually easier to use whatever Lee 'powder scoop' is close (but under what I want) and use the powder trickler thingie to bring it dead on.

Home-made bullet boards hold 75 rds, so I'll charge 75 - then set the bullet in those....charge 75 more...

Crimp the entire batch at the end.


~ like we were saying, LOTS of variables...the more of those you can 'standardize' so to speak the better you shoot...

1000 yards with iron sights is no time to be wondering if it's the variances in the ammo, the sights or the hangover causing all the flyers.

I will not say that a progressive loader can't do it. I will say that I can't do it with a progressive loader.

I load up different loads to find the right one. I load five of each variation. Variations include type of powder, amount of powder in increments above and belower the book recommendation, different bullets, and bullets seated at different depths. I can't imagine trying to track all of those changes on a progressive. One at a time helps me keep track.

Once you find the right load for a rifle, you might could crank them out on a high quality progressive.

Someone mentioned pushing the bullet out to touch the lands. Intuitively, this makes sense. Oddly, though, some rifles like a small gap between the bullet and the lands. It has something to do with barrel harmonics that is way above my level of understanding. I just know that it sometimes works to leave a gap there. That's why bullet seating depth is one of my variables.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.