Another win for the Constitution

[Tink1717 2]

This is the issue I wish the right would get all up in arms about. I mean seriously, you have to submit to criminal investigation and be cleared just to work? How did we get to a point where the populace accepts that level of intrusion into their private lives? These companies aren't even the government and most jobs that require a whiz quiz have nothing to do with security or transportation or anything else that recreational intoxication would interfere with. Yet the passive populace doesn't bat an eye. How fucked up is that where a POTENTIAL employer gets to violate your rights in a way the state only wishes it could?

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[rushmc 18]

Tink1717

This is the issue I wish the right would get all up in arms about. I mean seriously, you have to submit to criminal investigation and be cleared just to work? How did we get to a point where the populace accepts that level of intrusion into their private lives? These companies aren't even the government and most jobs that require a whiz quiz have nothing to do with security or transportation or anything else that recreational intoxication would interfere with. Yet the passive populace doesn't bat an eye. How fucked up is that where a POTENTIAL employer gets to violate your rights in a way the state only wishes it could?

The feds require it for many things
Kill that bull shit first and the rest can follow

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[freethefly 6]

Way to go, Missouri. Spend a $100.00 to save $1.00.
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/26/4714700/kansas-follows-missouris-path.html

It appears that the cost far out pace the savings.
I believe that any person wishing to receive welfare could easily beat the test. One only needs to refrain from smoking for 30 days. Most other substances are out of a persons system in less the 5 days.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/11/DrugTesting/ib.pdf

Ahhhh, the hypocrisy!
http://cjonline.com/news/2013-12-19/legislator-drug-testing-includes-no-penalties-failure

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rickjump1 0]

Tink1717

This is the issue I wish the right would get all up in arms about. I mean seriously, you have to submit to criminal investigation and be cleared just to work? How did we get to a point where the populace accepts that level of intrusion into their private lives? These companies aren't even the government and most jobs that require a whiz quiz have nothing to do with security or transportation or anything else that recreational intoxication would interfere with. Yet the passive populace doesn't bat an eye. How fucked up is that where a POTENTIAL employer gets to violate your rights in a way the state only wishes it could?

An employer has a right to know the background of the people he/she hires. Millions of dollars are spent on preventing theft by employees. Someone has to "watch the store", and that is an additional expense. Some of these employers have spent a lifetime building their businesses. Can you blame them for wanting to protect what is theirs? Once again, you are free to seek employment elsewhere. Nobody is violating anyone's rights.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[sfzombie13 307]

no, the point here was as stated: after smoking a joint at night, there are absolutely NO ADVERSE EFFECTS the next day. ever. at all. after getting drunk at night, there ARE ADVERSE EFFECTS the next day, even up to 20 hours later, depending on the amount that was drunk (drank?). and since there has been so much talk about legalizing, there have been more studies done on thc. i just read about how thc produces more (3000 times the normal amount) of some hormone that actually blocks the effects of thc. this explains why heavy smokers have less of an effect from thc, and also why you build up a tolerance.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[sfzombie13 307]

and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

sfzombie13

no, the point here was as stated: after smoking a joint at night, there are absolutely NO ADVERSE EFFECTS the next day. ever. at all...

Can you back that up at all?

A quick search showed that there are measurable cognitive effects (negative effects) for some time after smoking.
It depends on the amount and frequency, but it most definitely affects the user the next day, and longer (up to 28 days) for heavy or frequent use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_cannabis

There are other results out there, the wiki link was the easiest to find, and it has citations for the studies.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[sfzombie13 307]

yep. i've done both. that's all i need to have to show that there are no measurable effects. and i have done studies on myself to show this. there is a thing called the weaponeer, it is like a big pinball table with an m16 and simulated targets up to 300 m. we had one in the barracks when i was on active duty back in the early 90's. we used to get messed up and play with it sometimes. i have the results from being sober, drunk, and high. sober i got 35 out of 40. drunk, was a 22. high was a perfect 40, all head shots. i still have the printouts of those.

and when i was in truck driving school, we had a driving simulator. again, personal experience here, again after hours. again, i was a much better driver high, and i even had a faster reaction time. not by much, but faster. and that was true in all types of weather.

and anyone citing wikipedia for anything should search a little harder. there was a study i just read today but i can't find the link, let me look a little more and get back with it. in a nutshell, it showed just the opposite. even explained the reason tolerance builds up and how smoking more got you less high.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/01/active-ingredient-in-pot-sets-off-a-feedback-that-reduces-intoxication/
and most of the studies up until the last few years are heavily biased and were put out to show how bad pot was, not surprising to find negative results. look at more recent ones, they are much more objective.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[rickjump1 0]

sfzombie13

and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[turtlespeed 212]

rickjump1

***and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[mistercwood 287]

turtlespeed

******and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd.

Bravo, guys. You've both fallen hook, line and sinker for the now well-outdated ideal of the "American Dream", which died a quiet death decades ago yet you still think is up for grabs for anyone who works hard and keeps their nose clean.

Most of the time, I don't see eye to eye with either of you. I still thought you were both brighter than that.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[BIGUN 1,071]

Southern_Man

***

ETA: You and I had to do it in the military. Cops have to do it. Why not others who draw from the public largess?

There is nothing inherent in the condition of being impoverished that supports the conclusion that there is a concrete danger that impoverished individuals are prone to drug use

There is nothing inherent in the condition of being a public servant that supports the conclusion that there is a concrete danger that public servants or members of the military are prone to drug use.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[sfzombie13 307]

if you actually believe this, then you sir, are a fool who has much greater issues than i can ever hope to address in a simple internet forum. have you ever seen any issue from the side you do not take? i truly hope that anyone with such a narrow minded view such as this did not reproduce in order to perpetuate such draconian views.

consider this: one can get a divorce due to a cheating wife (like i did), obtain a great job driving a truck, only to find that he was manipulated by the moving industry which only hired him to handle the summertime influx of people moving only to leave him with no freight or way to pay for his truck in the fall, thereby forcing him into bankruptcy. then, when he seeks to enlist into the military to support himself, he finds that he has to sign away any chance of custody of his his children (and yes, it happened to me just like that). boom, bad credit.

i am not crying about it, nor did i ever fall into a self loathing drug induced stupor. hell, i didn't complain much at all, it doesn't do any good. instead, i just quietly picked myself up, dusted myself off, and quietly carried on. i have started over more than 7 times in my life, and now, am a successful (paying the bills) small business owner, with shitty credit.

so fuck you for thinking like that. people like you are part of the problem with this country. you sit up in an ivory tower thinking that you're better than anyone else and spout out opinions on how things should work. well, i am here to tell you that there are exceptions to every rule. not every homeless person is there because he can't do anything else, some would but circumstances have dealt them a series of unfortunate events. i know, i have been there.

as long as people in charge in this country are being ran by big business and corporate lobbyists then we are doomed. and i for one am going to be quite comfortable when the shit hits the fan and the blood starts flowing. you or anybody else cannot take anything away from me that hasn't already been taken, more than once, i might add. and i bounced back.

and if i want to smoke pot to keep me from killing someone or to deal with the ptsd and constant pain that i live with after 9 years of protecting sorry asses like you so that you can have the freedom to say or think what you want, then i will. i want to think that deep down you are not the narrow minded, selfish prick that you come across as on the internet. and due to my capability of placing myself in your shoes, i give you the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe that you are really a nice guy. but again, fuck you for thinking that way.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

sfzombie13

yep. i've done both. that's all i need to have to show that there are no measurable effects. and i have done studies on myself to show this. there is a thing called the weaponeer, it is like a big pinball table with an m16 and simulated targets up to 300 m. we had one in the barracks when i was on active duty back in the early 90's. we used to get messed up and play with it sometimes. i have the results from being sober, drunk, and high. sober i got 35 out of 40. drunk, was a 22. high was a perfect 40, all head shots. i still have the printouts of those.

and when i was in truck driving school, we had a driving simulator. again, personal experience here, again after hours. again, i was a much better driver high, and i even had a faster reaction time. not by much, but faster. and that was true in all types of weather.

and anyone citing wikipedia for anything should search a little harder. there was a study i just read today but i can't find the link, let me look a little more and get back with it. in a nutshell, it showed just the opposite. even explained the reason tolerance builds up and how smoking more got you less high.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/01/active-ingredient-in-pot-sets-off-a-feedback-that-reduces-intoxication/
and most of the studies up until the last few years are heavily biased and were put out to show how bad pot was, not surprising to find negative results. look at more recent ones, they are much more objective.

Well, a study sample of one is hardly conclusive. Self-studies even less so. You may be an anomaly.

I agree that there were a lot of biased studies put out by the "Anti" crowd. That's why I didn't link any of them. The Wiki link was the easiest to find.

But there are a lot of unbiased studies that show pot use reduces capabilities and that it lasts for more than just the time that the user "feels high."
Can you cite one that shows any different?
Not just that use builds tolerance.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[sfzombie13 307]

honestly, i have never given it much thought, certainly not enough to search for studies about the effects of thc. i doubt that i will to be honest. and while i realize that self studies aren't really proof of anything, i am also taking into account interactions with a lot of different smokers over the years and common sense (gasp!). and i am not arguing at all that the effects last longer than the time one feels high, just that it certainly does not last overnight. not at all like the effects of alcohol which can last overnight and all day the next day. no self study here (only), studies of a lot of others as well.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[rickjump1 0]

turtlespeed

******and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd. Yeah.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rickjump1 0]

sfzombie13

if you actually believe this, then you sir, are a fool who has much greater issues than i can ever hope to address in a simple internet forum. have you ever seen any issue from the side you do not take? i truly hope that anyone with such a narrow minded view such as this did not reproduce in order to perpetuate such draconian views.

consider this: one can get a divorce due to a cheating wife (like i did), obtain a great job driving a truck, only to find that he was manipulated by the moving industry which only hired him to handle the summertime influx of people moving only to leave him with no freight or way to pay for his truck in the fall, thereby forcing him into bankruptcy. then, when he seeks to enlist into the military to support himself, he finds that he has to sign away any chance of custody of his his children (and yes, it happened to me just like that). boom, bad credit.

i am not crying about it, nor did i ever fall into a self loathing drug induced stupor. hell, i didn't complain much at all, it doesn't do any good. instead, i just quietly picked myself up, dusted myself off, and quietly carried on. i have started over more than 7 times in my life, and now, am a successful (paying the bills) small business owner, with shitty credit.

so fuck you for thinking like that. people like you are part of the problem with this country. you sit up in an ivory tower thinking that you're better than anyone else and spout out opinions on how things should work. well, i am here to tell you that there are exceptions to every rule. not every homeless person is there because he can't do anything else, some would but circumstances have dealt them a series of unfortunate events. i know, i have been there.

as long as people in charge in this country are being ran by big business and corporate lobbyists then we are doomed. and i for one am going to be quite comfortable when the shit hits the fan and the blood starts flowing. you or anybody else cannot take anything away from me that hasn't already been taken, more than once, i might add. and i bounced back.

and if i want to smoke pot to keep me from killing someone or to deal with the ptsd and constant pain that i live with after 9 years of protecting sorry asses like you so that you can have the freedom to say or think what you want, then i will. i want to think that deep down you are not the narrow minded, selfish prick that you come across as on the internet. and due to my capability of placing myself in your shoes, i give you the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe that you are really a nice guy. but again, fuck you for thinking that way.

Bad credit or bankruptcy due to uncontrollable events: OK, I see your point. Now, what did I get out of protecting your "sorry ass" when I was in the military, Junior? I did a couple of infantry tours in Vietnam plus one flying. I went through the alcohol period of my life and still fight it. When I can't sleep at night, I don't count sheep, I count dead infantrymen and pilots. I want to remember them.

I also came to the realization that nobody owes me a living. When I couldn't find work here, I went overseas, and when I came back there was nothing for me where I chose to live so I made long commutes to work out of state for long periods of time away from home.

Most of my working life I have had the pleasure of working with Vietnam veterans who like myself, came home with the same shit our fathers came home with. There are some things you can never get over, but you don't let it control your life. Sure, people I knew fell by the wayside because of drugs and alcohol, but most got over self pity and moved on.

There is no shame in seeking help. Get help, but don't wait for it to come to you.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[kallend 1,648]

turtlespeed

******and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd.


OK, but this thread isn't about defense contractors or CEOs of banks "too big to fail".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sfzombie13 307]

i don't need help. i can handle myself. while i will admit to not having the same kind of wartime experience as anyone in vietnam, or any of the previous wars, it was no cake walk in the middle east, either in desert storm, enduring freedom, or iraqi freedom. the one thing i miss most is my hearing. that's the only sore spot with me. and it sounds like you are more like me than you would want to admit. it's your attitude that i have issue with. it may be ok for you to just blindly listen to what persons of authority tell you, and you may be alright with giving up freedom in exchange for security, but i assure you sir that i am not.

like i said, i have started over 7 times, and not once have i asked for a handout from anyone, nor would i have accepted one. i have had some pretty shitty things going on in my life, but i can't complain. a lot better have it a lot worse. i am in one piece and still have my health (mostly). i'm not asking anyone for anything, except to leave me the hell alone and let me do what i want, until it interferes with others. all i want is for everyone to do their fair share.

some make a lot more money, some less. corporations should pay, not move money offshore to dodge taxes. all executives should have to forfeit any bonuses to the government if they have been bailed out. this is not any type of communism, socialism, nor fascism. it is simply common sense. and for all that, your attitude still sucks, but i for one am glad that you are allowed to express it.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Southern_Man 0]

BIGUN

******

ETA: You and I had to do it in the military. Cops have to do it. Why not others who draw from the public largess?

There is nothing inherent in the condition of being impoverished that supports the conclusion that there is a concrete danger that impoverished individuals are prone to drug use

There is nothing inherent in the condition of being a public servant that supports the conclusion that there is a concrete danger that public servants or members of the military are prone to drug use.

The exceptions to the need for warrants to conduct searches have nothing to do with public service. The exceptions have been grounded in public safety.

I don't necessarily agree with many of those exceptions or the way they've been implemented as drug tests are required many times in ways unrelated to job duties

Nonetheless there is a high bar to overcome to require warrantless searches such as drug tests and merely being the recipient of public benefits is not enough to overcome that bar.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[turtlespeed 212]

mistercwood

*********and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd.

Bravo, guys. You've both fallen hook, line and sinker for the now well-outdated ideal of the "American Dream", which died a quiet death decades ago yet you still think is up for grabs for anyone who works hard and keeps their nose clean.

Most of the time, I don't see eye to eye with either of you. I still thought you were both brighter than that.

Considering the source, I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[BIGUN 1,071]

kallend

*********and maybe, just maybe an employer has a right to do a background check, but a credit check? man, rights are being violated and people are not only rolling over and taking it, but actually going to great lengths to make up bullshit excuses to justify it. and piss tests are easy to cheat on if you know someone who is clean. unless you're in the military and they actually look at it. then you have to get a prosthetic.

Why not a credit check? Do you think a bank would want to hire someone who has no credit or someone who recently declared bankruptcy? The same would apply for someone seeking employment as a cashier at Walmart. The people "rolling over and taking it", are the people who understand the seriousness of working to provide a livelihood for themselves and their families. They also understand that a good job is not a "right". They may even hate their job, but they will keep it until they can advance to something else better.

That will never compute for the entitlement crowd.


OK, but this thread isn't about defense contractors or CEOs of banks "too big to fail".

Yes sir, it was. I brought it up and then continued the discourse of "Public Largess."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.