The Target credit/debit card fiasco

[kallend 1,672]

Could have been avoided.

www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-1221-credit-card-technology-20131221,0,7876975.story#axzz2oACfIqIX

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

2 years ago in china I had to carry lots of cash because many places didn't have mag stripe readers. A hotel that did have one required I leave cash with the front desk for 2 days in order to run the card through their mag stripe reader and their clearing house could verify it wasn't a stolen card.

I'm waiting for the chips in the cards.

--
Rob

[Pacific 0]

kallend

Could have been avoided.

Because the LA times said so. Just ban guns and credit cards so we'll safer with cash.

[Kennedy 0]

While it's embarrassing that the US hasn't adopted stronger cards, there's more to this than just the mag stripe being weak. Remember the Global Payments breach last year? The entire system needs to be strengthened and updated, and kept up to date. I'm sick of hearing huge companies acting like ignorant home PC users and failing to install updates that prevent or at least impede or catch breaches like this.

I'm most bothered by the fact that I found out about the breach from tech sources only after Krebs and security professionals outted the theft. Target has done most everything wrong in this case, from not getting ahead of it, to not being clear about who and what were affected and when, to making any reasonable effort to communicate with customers. (almost as bad as RSA's recent non-denying denial of NSA complicity).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[oldwomanc6 38]

No matter what technology the card is equipped with, there WILL be someone who can beat it. The key is to find someone who will (hopefully) stand by you as a customer (cardholder).

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[kallend 1,672]

Pacific

***
Could have been avoided.

Because the LA times said so. Just ban guns and credit cards so we'll safer with cash.

Since it's Christmas I'll refrain from comment on your post.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,672]

oldwomanc6

No matter what technology the card is equipped with, there WILL be someone who can beat it. The key is to find someone who will (hopefully) stand by you as a customer (cardholder).

That's hardly an excuse for making sub-minimal effort to prevent fraud.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,166]

I still lock my house.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Anyone who is not concerned about credit/debit card fraud is not paying attention.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[oldwomanc6 38]

I wasn't making excuses for Target, merely suggesting choosing a CC company that will stand by you. Some are better than others.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[weekender 0]

the US is by far the largest user of CC's in the world. the article stated 1bill are issued. so its not so easy to just convert everyone, there are cost involved to the vendor, bank and consumer. so far, no one seems to have demanded the change. banks are ok with their level of losses, consumers seem to tolerate it as well, by and large.

the US is not dumber than Europe, i really loath those implications from people here. i doubt i need to list all our technical achievements to prove thats not true. i'm not typing on a European computer, didnt find this sight using a European search engine and so on...

they need to reissue every card and someone has to pay for it. also, every vendor will have to purchase or lease new machines and someone has to pay for that too. we are a giant country and our problems are bigger and harder to solve. knowing the answer isnt as easy as implementing it. comparing us to Europe is not apples to apples and to imply otherwise is showing ignorance to our size or just plain dislike of our nation.

or the US is just a bunch of dolts with no understanding of technology, which im sure many of you believe.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kallend 1,672]

weekender

i'm not typing on a European computer, didnt find this sight using a European search engine and so on...

I doubt that you're typing on a US made computer either. And this SITE is not hosted in the US.

Get off your high horse.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

they need to reissue every card and someone has to pay for it. also, every vendor will have to purchase or lease new machines and someone has to pay for that too.

I have a friend who is in the credit card business, servicing small vendors. He keeps saying there is a huge potential for anyone who can effectively figure this out. He also thinks Square is DOA. Not going to fly, especially with 2.5% surcharge.

We are all engines of karma

[weekender 0]

kallend

*** i'm not typing on a European computer, didnt find this sight using a European search engine and so on...

I doubt that you're typing on a US made computer either. And this SITE is not hosted in the US.

Get off your high horse.

Hope you enjoyed your holiday. not sarcasm. i didnt miss you but assume your family and friends might have. (that was)

im not on a high horse. i accept the reality that the US is quite advanced technologically and the problem is of implementation based on our size not our lack of knowledge. thats not an arrogant statement at all. im not screaming "merica, love it or leave it."

i think its fair to say we know what the problem is but lack the will to implement it because its going to be a complicated, expensive endeavor. its not because we are dumber than Europe.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

the US is by far the largest user of CC's in the world. the article stated 1bill are issued. so its not so easy to just convert everyone, there are cost involved to the vendor, bank and consumer. so far, no one seems to have demanded the change. banks are ok with their level of losses, consumers seem to tolerate it as well, by and large.

Well, customers have no real say in the matter, do they? They can only choose from what's available. Now there are a number of banks now that will issue EMV cards, though not with the pin code (instead chip + signature).

As for the difficulty in reissuing cards - come on. Banks reissue cards every 3-4 years, and have no problem sending out replacements if your's is lost. The card readers are an expense, but would quickly be paid for by the dramatic reduction of the 11B/year in bad charges.
--
BTW, Kallend, the EMV chip only works against on location fraud. It does not protect against online fraud, so saying that this Target problem could have been prevented is false. One time CC#s is the method to combat online issues.

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***the US is by far the largest user of CC's in the world. the article stated 1bill are issued. so its not so easy to just convert everyone, there are cost involved to the vendor, bank and consumer. so far, no one seems to have demanded the change. banks are ok with their level of losses, consumers seem to tolerate it as well, by and large.

Well, customers have no real say in the matter, do they? They can only choose from what's available. Now there are a number of banks now that will issue EMV cards, though not with the pin code (instead chip + signature).

As for the difficulty in reissuing cards - come on. Banks reissue cards every 3-4 years, and have no problem sending out replacements if your's is lost. The card readers are an expense, but would quickly be paid for by the dramatic reduction of the 11B/year in bad charges.
--
BTW, Kallend, the EMV chip only works against on location fraud. It does not protect against online fraud, so saying that this Target problem could have been prevented is false. One time CC#s is the method to combat online issues.

i dont disagree with your points, mostly. i do think changing the cards is more expensive than issuing the same old style though. also multiple it by a billion and it certainly adds up. so you might be underestimating the cost a bit for replacement. im no expert, i admit. also, and i could be wrong, i always thought the proprietor payed for the machine not the cc or bank. so a lot of businesses dont want the added expense of replacing them nor benefit from less loses. the banks will see that benefit and not pass it along. i imagine there are business people here that can point out more about the costs. again, i admit, im not an expert on this.

i stand by my broader point that its not about lack of technology or knowledge by America. its about the complexity of execution in a giant nation and the cost of it. perhaps, im over emphasizing the costs. i will concede that. i am correct that its not about a lack of technical sophistication on our part though.

Merica!!

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kallend 1,672]

weekender

******the US is by far the largest user of CC's in the world. the article stated 1bill are issued. so its not so easy to just convert everyone, there are cost involved to the vendor, bank and consumer. so far, no one seems to have demanded the change. banks are ok with their level of losses, consumers seem to tolerate it as well, by and large.

Well, customers have no real say in the matter, do they? They can only choose from what's available. Now there are a number of banks now that will issue EMV cards, though not with the pin code (instead chip + signature).

As for the difficulty in reissuing cards - come on. Banks reissue cards every 3-4 years, and have no problem sending out replacements if your's is lost. The card readers are an expense, but would quickly be paid for by the dramatic reduction of the 11B/year in bad charges.
--
BTW, Kallend, the EMV chip only works against on location fraud. It does not protect against online fraud, so saying that this Target problem could have been prevented is false. One time CC#s is the method to combat online issues.

i dont disagree with your points, mostly. i do think changing the cards is more expensive than issuing the same old style though. also multiple it by a billion and it certainly adds up. so you might be underestimating the cost a bit for replacement. im no expert, i admit. also, and i could be wrong, i always thought the proprietor payed for the machine not the cc or bank. so a lot of businesses dont want the added expense of replacing them nor benefit from less loses. the banks will see that benefit and not pass it along. i imagine there are business people here that can point out more about the costs. again, i admit, im not an expert on this.

i stand by my broader point that its not about lack of technology or knowledge by America. its about the complexity of execution in a giant nation and the cost of it. perhaps, im over emphasizing the costs. i will concede that. i am correct that its not about a lack of technical sophistication on our part though.

Merica!!

So US has more cards.

HOWEVER it also has more CC users over which to spread the direct costs and defray the fixed costs.

I disagree with your analysis.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

kallend

*********the US is by far the largest user of CC's in the world. the article stated 1bill are issued. so its not so easy to just convert everyone, there are cost involved to the vendor, bank and consumer. so far, no one seems to have demanded the change. banks are ok with their level of losses, consumers seem to tolerate it as well, by and large.

Well, customers have no real say in the matter, do they? They can only choose from what's available. Now there are a number of banks now that will issue EMV cards, though not with the pin code (instead chip + signature).

As for the difficulty in reissuing cards - come on. Banks reissue cards every 3-4 years, and have no problem sending out replacements if your's is lost. The card readers are an expense, but would quickly be paid for by the dramatic reduction of the 11B/year in bad charges.
--
BTW, Kallend, the EMV chip only works against on location fraud. It does not protect against online fraud, so saying that this Target problem could have been prevented is false. One time CC#s is the method to combat online issues.

i dont disagree with your points, mostly. i do think changing the cards is more expensive than issuing the same old style though. also multiple it by a billion and it certainly adds up. so you might be underestimating the cost a bit for replacement. im no expert, i admit. also, and i could be wrong, i always thought the proprietor payed for the machine not the cc or bank. so a lot of businesses dont want the added expense of replacing them nor benefit from less loses. the banks will see that benefit and not pass it along. i imagine there are business people here that can point out more about the costs. again, i admit, im not an expert on this.

its about the complexity of execution in a giant nation and the cost of it. perhaps, im over emphasizing the costs. i will concede that. i am correct that its not about a lack of technical sophistication on our part though.

Merica!!

So US has more cards.

HOWEVER it also has more CC users over which to spread the direct costs and defray the fixed costs.

I disagree with your analysis.

fair enough. so does the other gentleman. ive already admitted my costs could be exaggerated based on my lack of knowledge. i know its the internet and society demands i stand my ground and call you stupid but im in no position to debate this. My gut is telling me you and Kelpdiver are underestimating the costs. my gut is basing its feelings on years and years of reading corporate balance sheets, models and business plans. so i admit im no expert, but im no dolt either.

here is how i see it. if it was so easy and cheap it would have been done. i cannot understand why if it was cheap, easy and everyone benefits its not done. it just seems way more expensive and complicated than people are proposing. there is a CC machine on food carts now. they are everywhere and it will be very expensive endeavor to replace everything as we know it. i just dont see the will to get this done anytime soon.

i stand by my broader point that its not about lack of technology or knowledge by America. as some like to allude.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kallend 1,672]

weekender

i stand by my broader point that its not about lack of technology or knowledge by America. as some like to allude.

Right. It's lack of will.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

***

i stand by my broader point that its not about lack of technology or knowledge by America. as some like to allude.

Right. It's lack of will.

Visa and MC have themselves in a pretty sweet situation, where they collect money for transactions. Fraud doesn't cost them a thing, so why do they care? Before they went public, Visa was really operated by the member banks who would decide what projects to fund, so they set the agenda. They are the ones eating most of the losses, though they use them to justify the high interest rates being charged in spite of the incredibly low Fed rates. So I don't think they care much either.

Not sure how much of the losses are eaten by the retailers. Given how many of them ignored my 'check id' signature, I think they deserve their share.

At the heart of it, though, fraud hurts the end consumers the most. They're the ones that have to do the work to clear their name, and the ones paying the price when the credit report indicates them to be dead beats. But they're also the ones with nearly no say in the matter. "I'm not going to use credit cards" is on par with "I'm voting for the third party candidate." Their only power is to convince legislators to pass consumer protection laws that force better behavior on the financial companies. And we've seen a bit of that in recent years, after banks got a bit too egregious in their predatory tendencies.

Fees and finance charges are their bread and butter now - the 1.5% they make off my charging activity doesn't seem to compare. And I suppose it doesn't. If I charge 30k, that's $450. But if someone has an average balance of 7k, they're likely paying over $1000/year just in finance charges. And that's easy money, whereas I'm seeing fradulent charges every year now that exceed the $450. Of course, they could solve that problem and I'd be profitable, but it seems that their analysis is that the status quo is a better ROI.

[kallend 1,672]

From Bloomberg:

As the rest of the world adopted the new technology, the U.S. became the world capital of credit-card fraud. Last year it accounted for 47 percent of global fraud, while processing just 24 percent of the payments by volume, according to the Nilson Report, an industry newsletter.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

kallend

From Bloomberg:

As the rest of the world adopted the new technology, the U.S. became the world capital of credit-card fraud. Last year it accounted for 47 percent of global fraud, while processing just 24 percent of the payments by volume, according to the Nilson Report, an industry newsletter.

consumers are not responsible for the loses, or so they believe. this is causing them to not complain much. its misguided because they ARE assuming the loses, just not upfront. the banks have you believe, since they give you the money back when your card is stolen, that they are eating the loss. they are all about the bottom line, and not stupid. they are not eating this fraud. they are passing it on for sure. i believe anyway. im no expert on this for sure.

maybe marking up the sale of stocks to offset the loses on CC. Im kidding obviously, but they are passing it on for sure and if people realized it and demanded more modern technology it would happen.

the banks are duping us i think.

(edited some grammar)

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[champu 1]

If the credit card companies stick the merchants with the fraudulent charges (their first line of attack) thaen it ends up on the merchants' books and their prices will go up to account for the shrinkage.

[kallend 1,672]

Latest Target cock-up:

abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/target-reveals-gift-card-snafu-21382242

Someone's head needs to roll at that company.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.