Obama: 'We Have Accomplished As Much, If Not More, Than Any Time in Our History'

[swisschris62 0]

Terrorist...aka - boogeyman!

[kallend 1,679]

lawrocket

The Constitution doesn't allow it. Indeed, from a psychological perspective we have to find some way of dehumanizing. It's been all right to kill niggers, spicks, krauts, nips, gooks, heebs, etc. Add "terrorist." The Constitution protects persons - not "terrorists."

To paraphrase Uncle Joe: How many divisions does the Constitution have?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mistercwood 287]

lawrocket

No, this President didn't start it. He has perfected it. The US is openly bragging about assassinations on foreign soil of foreign nationals and even US citizens. The killing of Bin Laden was nothing more than an assassination and Act of War that the US bragged about.

This. For those who don't have an issue with this, consider if the shoe was on the other foot:

China announce they've located one of their citizens who's a dissident troublemaker who's been hiding from them in Mexico. But hey, it's ok, they sent in a drone and smoked that guy! There were a bunch of other people with him who were killed in the blast, but obviously if they were hanging with a known dissident (to China) then they were dissidents too and got what was coming to them. They're not at war with Mexico, just with Dissidents.

If this actually played out in the real world, you'd lose your shit. Now explain how the US doing it is any more acceptable, especially given the country in my example has none of the protections for its citizens that the US does.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[DanG 1]

Quote

The killing of Bin Laden was nothing more than an assassination and Act of War that the US bragged about.

How exactly would you have handled the Bin Laden situation?

- Dan G

[normiss 643]

I think invading another country in this manner is inexcusable.
That's NOT how we play international politics.
I'm consistently amazed that the rest of the world takes this in stride.

Again, say China has a "Bin Laden" hiding in the US, you good with a drone taking a few of us out with him???

[DanG 1]

The question still stands. How would you have handled it? Tell the Pakis you know where he is? You think he'd still be there an hour later?

If China alerted us that a terrorist accused of 3,000 counts of murder was hiding down the street from West Point, don't you think we'd go arrest him for them?

- Dan G

[normiss 643]

With the currently rising tensions between the US and China, I would hope not.
Deport them out, yes, help an opposing nation capture someone in the US? No way in hell.
Have you noticed we have even imported a few terrorists into the US only to instantly provide them with citizen's rights in the courts?


Personally, I think international borders should be a huge deal.
To every nation.

We could have easily demanded Bin Laden be handed over, instantly. You want our support and money to stop RIGHT NOW? Then hand him over. Dead or alive.
They would be fucked out of $18-20 BILLION instantly.
Sounds good to me.
I think we had the capability to completely track him once they knew he was there as they had time to fully recreate the entire compound. Without his moving to another location. ;-)


Maybe this dick measuring contest between China and Japan will eliminate the US debt to China!
The cost of the elimination concerns me greatly.

[rickjump1 0]

I think you can safely say that the Islamic terrorists who performed that perfect "stunt" on 9-11 thought of all those innocent people killed as nothing but Infidels working for the great Satan. Now what could be more dehumanizing than that? What could be more dehumanizing than immigrating to the United States with the sole purpose of maiming and killing innocent Americans, and then crying for Constitutional rights when caught in the act?

Regarding American Presidents: "American Presidents often have not sought formal declarations of war, instead maintaining that they have the Constitutional authority, as commander in chief (Article Two, Section Two) to use the military for "police actions". According to historian Thomas Woods, "Ever since the Korean War, Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution — which refers to the president as the 'Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States' — has been interpreted to mean that the president may act with an essentially free hand in foreign affairs, or at the very least that he may send men into battle without consulting Congress."

According to one writer, "We have 'Imperial Presidents".

We like to think the Korean War was the first act by these "Imperial Presidents" followed by Vietnam......, but they have existed long before the Civil War. The Mexican War is one example.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[mistercwood 287]

DanG

If China alerted us that a terrorist accused of 3,000 counts of murder was hiding down the street from West Point, don't you think we'd go arrest him for them?

What if they don't alert you. What if they sent a missile strike to kill him with no fore-warning. Is that acceptable to you? If not, why is it acceptable for the US to do it?

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[DanG 1]

Quote

What if they don't alert you. What if they sent a missile strike to kill him with no fore-warning. Is that acceptable to you? If not, why is it acceptable for the US to do it?

That would be really upsetting. Of course, they wouldn't have to do that, since we wouldn't knowingly hide him to begin with.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

Quote

With the currently rising tensions between the US and China, I would hope not.
Deport them out, yes, help an opposing nation capture someone in the US? No way in hell.

Really? You think that we wouldn't hand over the Chinese equivalent of Osama bin Laden? The tensions between the US and China are not nearly as bad as you think.

Quote

Have you noticed we have even imported a few terrorists into the US only to instantly provide them with citizen's rights in the courts?

I don't see what that has to do with the discussion.

Quote

We could have easily demanded Bin Laden be handed over, instantly. You want our support and money to stop RIGHT NOW? Then hand him over. Dead or alive.
They would be fucked out of $18-20 BILLION instantly.

Yeah, except when they don't comply, we lose what little help we do get from them, and now we're officially at war with a nuclear armed nation. Not a very realistic option.

Quote

I think we had the capability to completely track him once they knew he was there as they had time to fully recreate the entire compound. Without his moving to another location. ;-)

Hardly. They didn't even know for sure if he was there in the first place.

- Dan G

[mistercwood 287]

DanG

Quote

What if they don't alert you. What if they sent a missile strike to kill him with no fore-warning. Is that acceptable to you? If not, why is it acceptable for the US to do it?

That would be really upsetting. Of course, they wouldn't have to do that, since we wouldn't knowingly hide him to begin with.

You're most likely correct. My point is regarding US global drone policy though, not so much OBL. Your nation is executing military strikes on targets (some civilian) in countries you have made no formal declaration of war against. Which the administration effectively brags about. Considering the furore that would erupt in America if any other nation started doing the same thing, why is this considered acceptable?

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

The killing of Bin Laden was nothing more than an assassination and Act of War that the US bragged about.

How exactly would you have handled the Bin Laden situation?

I'm glad I didn't have to. Thus, I am actually in a position of maintaining that an Act of War against the independent nation-state of Pakistan was committed. An Act of offensive, unprovoked War would be something I'd avoid at all costs.

If I was to use and Act of War, would I wants boots on the ground? Nah. Either a drone or perhaps send in a B-2 from Missouri. Then blame it on a truck bomb or something.

Another possibility would be to keep tabs on him and intercept dialysis assets.

Really - it would have involved the use of actual DIPLOMACY. Not Seal Team Six, a couple of choppers and ammunition. And if it means that we have to wait a few more months before we give him due process then so be it.

What's wrong is wrong no matter how good the reason.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Quote

If I was to use and Act of War, would I wants boots on the ground? Nah. Either a drone or perhaps send in a B-2 from Missouri. Then blame it on a truck bomb or something.

It's one thing to send a Hellfire into a remote compound in the tribal areas, quite another to drop a bomb in the middle of a large city, a couple miles from the Pak version of West Point.

You keep saying "Act of War" like we aren't already at war. We've been committing what you would call "Acts of War" in the region for decades, long before 9/11.

Quote

Really - it would have involved the use of actual DIPLOMACY. Not Seal Team Six, a couple of choppers and ammunition. And if it means that we have to wait a few more months before we give him due process then so be it.

All the actual DIPLOMACY we've been doing in Pakistan for the last 25 years has gotten us very little. We wouldn't have been waiting a couple months, bin Laden would have disappeared for another decade.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]All the actual DIPLOMACY we've been doing in Pakistan for the last 25 years has gotten us very little.

[normiss 643]

Like stopping billions in wasted monies.
Yesterday.

[kallend 1,679]

DanG

The question still stands. How would you have handled it? Tell the Pakis you know where he is? You think he'd still be there an hour later?

If China alerted us that a terrorist accused of 3,000 counts of murder was hiding down the street from West Point, don't you think we'd go arrest him for them?

No.
US didn't do that when IRA terrorists wanted in Britain were fund raising in Boston, NYC and San Francisco. Neither did the Brits send in the SAS.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[swisschris62 0]

I always wondered how cnn was able to find him and interview him in a cave but yet the CIA and everyone else couldn't find him.
It's amazing how you can find the boogeyman when you need to get your point across on the 6 o'clock news.

[rickjump1 0]

lawrocket

[Reply]All the actual DIPLOMACY we've been doing in Pakistan for the last 25 years has gotten us very little.

For some reason I never thought that "diplomacy" is a word for "we get exactly what we want." Because it isn't. Pakistan doesn't want to turn him over? Then perhaps find something to do that doesn't involved invasion by armed forces.

[rickjump1 0]

swisschris62

I always wondered how cnn was able to find him and interview him in a cave but yet the CIA and everyone else couldn't find him.
It's amazing how you can find the boogeyman when you need to get your point across on the 6 o'clock news.

Find him? They not only found him, nobody would pull the trigger at the time, and this was not the only time Clinton failed to get him. These guys are masters at deception. Putting child swing sets or clothes lines outside their hideout plays on the emotions of the "good guys". For example, one time Clinton, refused to hit OBL because there was a UAE Gulfstream parked close to one of his hideouts. Some UAE prince was up in Pakistan falcon hunting with Osama. Here's another example : "Ex-CIA agent: President Clinton missed chance to kill Osama bin Laden" http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/14/ex-cia-agent-president-clinton-missed-chance-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/ Does this mean BHO has bigger balls?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[swisschris62 0]

I was referring to that way back when interview.
I wasn't attacking any one president in particular.
In one breath they were saying there was this massive man hunt, in the next breath they had a live interview.
I'm glad that boogeymans gone...
But man, there sure are a whole lotta boogeymen over there...this could literally go on forever.
Kinda like the drug war...that's not "winnable" either

[rickjump1 0]

It's like Knap Weed: you can control it, but it's next to impossible to completely get rid of it.

I don't think they want to win the drug war or rid the country of crime: too many people depend on the two for their livelihood.

Right now the President can attempt to shut you up with the IRS. What's next, those "wonderful" drones?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[swisschris62 0]

But are the situations really being "controlled" or does the "control" fuel the chaos?
Seems like the people who are benefiting the most/getting the richest from all of this control are actually doing things that are equal to or in some cases far worse then the people they decide to go to war against.

[lawrocket 3]

[Quote]Often, diplomacy does nothing more than buying more time for our opponents. Too often we end up smelling like fish whether we start it not.

It also buys time for us. I've often thought that diplomacy through threat is viable. For example, let's say there's another one we really want in Pakistan and the President calls Mamnoon Hussain:
"Hey, Mamnoon. It's President Obama."
"Hi, Mr. President."
"No, you can do better than that. Go to the window on your left, look out and wave up about 45 degrees."
"Why?"
"You aren't doing it. Do it now. Hey. Nice wave. And a nice suit, too. Listen, this isn't just a social call. Where are you going? No. Back in the window. I like seeing people when I talk to them - it's why teleprompters are see-through. There you are. Yep. How long have you had that Rolex? A week? Dang. It's a nice one. And that tie tack? IBA it says? Oh, my staff just told me that's your alma mater. Yes, I can see that, too. Amazing to think that in ten seconds, I could have a Hellfire missile targeted up your left nostril right through that moustache of yours. In ten seconds you could be dead and you'd not even see it coming. But on to important things, there's a guy we've had our eyes on for a few years. Yeah. He's right next door at the YMCA. Listen, can you do us a favor and capture him? No, I can't say I'll make it worth your while if you do. But if you don't capture him, well, your staff will be working overtime to clean up the Aiwan-e-sadr. Know what I'm saying? Hint hint? I misspoke earlier. 6 seconds till that warhead detonates. Thanks. Richard Olson will be at your place in two hours to take custody of him. Don't ignore his phone calls. I hate having my golf games interrupted. I have mary Kay Henry here and she hates being made to wait."
"Okay, Mr. President."
"No no no. Call be Barack. By the way, get someone to replace Sherry Rehman."

Now there's some diplomacy.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

lawrocket

Now there's some diplomacy.

'Do what I ask or I'll fire a rocket up your ass' is not more an example of "diplomacy" than what was actually done.