Iran Nuclear Deal

[grue 1]

Andy9o8

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I'm an American who was raised Jewish

Funny, you don't look grueish.

cavete terrae.

[mrubin 0]

grue

Plus, let's face it, setting up a Jewish state in the middle of the Arab world is like me setting up White Man Paradise in the middle of Somalia. Sort of calling attention to yourself that you might not want, no?

I can't argue with that.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[davjohns 1]

grue

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I am an educated American Jew who supports Israel. I don't support everything that they do, but I feel very strongly about their right to defend their existance.

On the other side of the coin, I'm an American who was raised Jewish that feels this whole situation could have been avoided if it wasn't decided that displacing one group of people to give a different group of people a place to stay based on some bullshit book was a reasonable idea. There were plenty of places to establish a "jewish state" (in itself a foolish idea), and they picked a stupid one that anyone with an ounce of grey matter would have known would cause a shitstorm.

You say some things that are thought provoking and useful. This wasn't your finest post. I've studied some of the history of the creation of Israel. The majority of the people who were 'displaced' were nomads who didn't have permission to be there in the first place. Most of the land was purchased from owners who didn't live there. The nomads were even allowed to continue using the land for years.

If you think the idea of a Jewish state is 'foolish', I submit that you don't grasp the whole idea of the preceding attempt at genocide and the world apathy that allowed it.

Granted, that particular geography was not the wisest. However, the people and the land had a history. It's hard to say what would have happened if they went somewhere else. Given the worldwide ambivalence to their attempted erradication, they probably figured they were surrounded by enemy no matter where they went.

You seem awfully emotional about this subject. You must be one of those self-hating Grues. It happens.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[falxori 0]

Surprise surprise...


Iran says to continue building at Arak nuclear site despite deal

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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This is the same thing on the other side. There are people who think that Iran should not be allowed to possess nuclear technologies. It requires a value judgment and inherently belittles.

Opining that Israel should not be allowed to talk does the same damned thing. It belittles Israel and says that their concerns, regarddless of validity, should not be heard.

Of course, this is why the problems won't be fixed for the foreseeable future. Neither side thinks the other is worthy of a voice.

I think your desperately trying to play dumb if you do not see the difference.

You have one country Iran, who has had a democratic government removed by the US in 53, has had to fight an unjust war which it did not start with Iraq our alli at the time, Which we the US supported even when chemical weapons were used, A country that's is surrounded by the country that called it an axis of evil.

On the other hand you have country that did not exists before 1948, the reason it exists is because they say god said so ( your a lawyer right if you cant see the difference in logic i wouldn't pay you .02 to hire you), Now this country has signed no nuclear treaty, has Nuclear capability, Always threatens there neighbors with possible action, and at the same time says no one else should have them.

This is not rocket science,
There is a guy with a gun who stole land and resides in it illegally and then also says no one should have guns because they steal land.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

mrubin

***One Isreal poses nuclear weapons

This has not been proven. I'm not saying that they don't, because they most likely do, but there is no confirmation that this is the case. If you can show me some information proving otherwise, I would be very interested to see it.

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Two, they have not signed a nuclear treaty

Signing a treaty would be saying that they have nuclear weapons when they will neither confirm nor deny it. If it comes to it, I hope you are this strongly opinionated about Iran signing a nuclear treaty.

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Tree, They have violated more UN resolutions then Iraq

I don't have all the information about this so I won't make an uninformed comment.

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Four, they are the country that has had preemptive attacks as a part of their standard MO

Most of Israel's engagements have been in response to being attacked. They have made pre-emptive attacks before, but its not normally the case.

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Five, They have an apartheid

This is opening up a different discussion that would not be relevant to the topic of this thread, so I will leave it for another time.

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The only people who think Israelis are innocent are uneducated Americans and Jews whos sense of morality is much smaller then the sense of camaraderie they feel to their tribe.

I am an educated American Jew who supports Israel. I don't support everything that they do, but I feel very strongly about their right to defend their existance.

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However the only two you need to know for this argument is that they have Nucks and have signed no treaty.

Nucks? Are you trying to say that the Israelis have Canadians without signing a treaty?


If you can’t see how hard you are trying to make the facts fit your view!? then I can’t help you. No one can as you have already chosen you camaraderie over your sense of logic , and truth.
You know they have them NUCLEAR WEAPONS (so you don’t mistake it for Canadians) but want to pretend they don’t, I can’t argue in make belief.
You know what I am talking about, but you have to pick a part a misspelled word.
That’s the issue with the world the fact that you know but you choose to bull shit your self and spread ignorance instead of having the balls to stand alone and not belong to a group.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

Darius11

There is a guy with a gun who stole land and resides in it illegally and then also says no one should have guns because they steal land.

for your poorly conceived analogy to work, you have to change it to 'receives stolen property' since the Brits owned (or if you prefer) stole that land, not the Jews. And then you have to ignore the Jewish owned property in the neighboring nations that was given up in exchange (or more precisely, siezed by those nations).

But as Lawrocket wrote, refusal to accept basic reality makes for poor conversation.

A lot of borders shifted with the end of WWII. Since then, some nations have converged again (Germany), some have split apart amicably (Czech and Slovakia). Illegal? Impossible, since the parties behind these decisions are the founding/perm members of the UN that would decide legality. And for all the anti Israeli resolutions, you're not going to find one to support your stance that it doesn't have a right to exist. That's the Iranian stance.

[Darius11 12]

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So your contention is that they are people, too? Mind telling me who out there doesn't give a bit more deference to their tribes? Indeed, Iran has killed more of its own people lately than other countries. Remember Neda Soltani? The election protests about 4 years hence? The history of political arrest, tortiure, killings?

Yes remember Edward snowden, Manning?? Torture plans that the CIA uses????Whats your point That WE have the right to run another countries government??
How about Iran come and tell the US how to run their shit.
That's the issue with most of you you can set standards for others that none of you would be willing to tolerate for your self.

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Iranians and Israelis s to dare good at pointing out all of the damned nasty things the the other side is doing. Of course, each side justifies why it's okay for their guys to do it but so wrong for the other guys. "Shut up. You assassinate people."
"YOU shut up. YOU assassinate people."
"We only assassinate people because you do."
"You started it."
"Did not."
"Did so!"
Ad nauseum.

I don't think it's useful to apply hypocritical standards. I do, however, think it's an entirely human quality. It's why everybody does it.

Unfortunately you might be right i do find myself alone/ fighting with the Iranians about the stupid illogical shit they say as well.

Fuckem all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rickjump1 0]

Darius11

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This is the same thing on the other side. There are people who think that Iran should not be allowed to possess nuclear technologies. It requires a value judgment and inherently belittles.

Opining that Israel should not be allowed to talk does the same damned thing. It belittles Israel and says that their concerns, regarddless of validity, should not be heard.

Of course, this is why the problems won't be fixed for the foreseeable future. Neither side thinks the other is worthy of a voice.

I think your desperately trying to play dumb if you do not see the difference.

You have one country Iran, who has had a democratic government removed by the US in 53, has had to fight an unjust war which it did not start with Iraq our alli at the time, Which we the US supported even when chemical weapons were used, A country that's is surrounded by the country that called it an axis of evil.

On the other hand you have country that did not exists before 1948, the reason it exists is because they say god said so ( your a lawyer right if you cant see the difference in logic i wouldn't pay you .02 to hire you), Now this country has signed no nuclear treaty, has Nuclear capability, Always threatens there neighbors with possible action, and at the same time says no one else should have them.

This is not rocket science,
There is a guy with a gun who stole land and resides in it illegally and then also says no one should have guns because they steal land.

What kind of government would you say Iran has today? I have always had the impression that Islam and democracy are incompatible. I'm willing to listen.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Darius11 12]

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But as Lawrocket wrote, refusal to accept basic reality makes for poor conversation.

Tell me about it you live in a world where the Israelis just moved in and magically the villagers fled, there was no Mossad killing villagers so they could scare people of their land, none of that shit. It was just the Brits??

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A lot of borders shifted with the end of WWII. Since then, some nations have converged again (Germany), some have split apart amicably (Czech and Slovakia). Illegal? Impossible, since the parties behind these decisions are the founding/perm members of the UN that would decide legality. And for all the anti Israeli resolutions, you're not going to find one to support your stance that it doesn't have a right to exist. That's the Iranian stance.

You keep telling your self what my stance is because you can't fight a logical fight, The truth does not support what you present as facts.

So its much easier for you to spew garbage that makes me or anyone you disagree with seem crazy and full of hate because that is dismissive. This is the usall tactic that is often used which i had already expected and mention before.

You rightfully criticize Israeli and the argument you eventually get is that you must be antisemitic when they can not hold a standard of facts. .

Now if you can show where i said "they don't have the right to exist" then come at me with a quote. If not stop making shit up so you can paint it black and white in your head.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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What kind of government would you say Iran has today? I have always had the impression that Islam and democracy are incompatible. I'm willing to listen.

Iran It is a theocracy, and I agree religion does not belong in the government. ANY RELIGION. I do not believe in royalty, a king or a queen I find any of those ideas so goddamn stupid it hurts my head.
That’s my personal view, however I am not arrogant enough to think that’s the only view that should be allowed and all others are evil.

I personally think we the US has the best idea, a constitutional government a democratic republic.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

Darius11

Now if you can show where i said "they don't have the right to exist" then come at me with a quote. If not stop making shit up so you can paint it black and white in your head.

You just said it, FFS.

"There is a guy with a gun who stole land and resides in it illegally"

How else can one read this but "Israel is an illegally formed nation?" If someone use force to seize a house on the street, then the police would come, take him away from that house, and charge him for theft and for the threat of force to make the occupants flee. So to do the same in the Middle East means to eliminate Israel as a nation. Maybe send its occupants to a concentration camp for 10-20 years.

What we saw was that the neighbors didn't like the newcomer who legally acquired his house, and rather than deal with the landowner (Brits) who performed the Ellis Act eviction, they repeated tried to lynch him, but unsuccessfully. How you can deem their actions as remotely legal is fascinating. And if we want to abuse this shitty construct even further, then WTF is Iran doing in the conversation? Are they honorable vigilantes? It's like Charles Bronson traveled across 3 states to evict this squatter.

[falxori 0]

Oh, where do I begin....

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you have country that did not exists before 1948

a. even you can't deny Israeli's historic connection to this land. and there was a jewish presence there always. Claiming people just "moved in" is simply not true.
And btw, if not existing before 1948 means it shouldn't exist, why don't you apply it to Palestine. after all, it NEVER existed...

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because they say god said so

No, not because god said so, but because of a 3000 year, well documented heritage

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Now this country has signed no nuclear treaty

Better than signing it and violating it like Iran and Syria did, right?

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Always threatens there neighbors with possible action

actions like stopping the Iraqis and Syrians from getting nukes? hell, someone should...
beside, Israel never said another country should be "wiped off the map", Iran has, on multiple occasions.

But, as always, if your basic premise is that Israel has no right to exist, there is no point in talking about it...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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you have country that did not exists before 1948

That's fact there was no Isreail before 1948 you can twist it all you want.

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a. even you can't deny Israeli's historic connection to this land. and there was a jewish presence there always. Claiming people just "moved in" is simply not true.
And btw, if not existing before 1948 means it shouldn't exist, why don't you apply it to Palestine. after all, it NEVER existed...

No one said there were no Jews, there are Jews in New York doesn't make new York a Jewish state now does it? I live on Long Island i don;t claim long island to be a part of Iran.
So as i said before there was NO ISRAEL before 1948.

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No, not because god said so, but because of a 3000 year, well documented heritage

Are you denying that there are many Jews who believe the land their own land was promised to them by god, are you denying the religious motivation behind a Jewish State?

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Better than signing it and violating it like Iran and Syria did, right?

Iran has no Weapons so it has not violated it.

If you can't see how insane it sounds for you to be proud that Israel has signed no contract yet feels the right to tell others to do so, i have nothing for you man.
Thats just crazy talk

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actions like stopping the Iraqis and Syrians from getting nukes? hell, someone should...
beside, Israel never said another country should be "wiped off the map", Iran has, on multiple occasions.

But, as always, if your basic premise is that Israel has no right to exist, there is no point in talking about it..

First don't say as always blah blah blah you have been better then that don't become one of these guys who writes of any criticisms and pretends i said shit that i didn't. That's just weak.


To the point about not allowing another country to get technology or weapons i find that statement filled with arrogance.
First who are you as a country to think you have the right to military intervene in the future of another country? Simply because you think so and you assumed a leads to b and c in your highly paranoid mind. (all the yours i mean Israel not you personally)
What gives you the right?
Also how fucking retarded do you have to be to not think you are rightfully hated if you did so?

Israel is setting standards that it self will not meet yet it tries to enforce on others. Why is so hard for you guys to understand that's not the way a person or a country should act.
Its really as simple as that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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That's fact there was no Isreail before 1948 you can twist it all you want.

no twistin anything, it's a fact. just an irrelevant fact.
There are many countries that didn't exist a few decades ago. Would you say the same about Jordan who was founded in 1946? How does your logic sit with your support of a Palestinian state. that never existed...

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there was NO ISRAEL before 1948

No, but there was an "Israel" in that land 2000 ago, which is more than you could say for most other nations. who are you to decide what timeline is relevant and what is not?

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Are you denying that there are many Jews who believe the land their own land was promised to them by god

No, not denying it. just saying it's irrelevant. the relevant part is the fact that this has been the Jewish homeland for 3000+ years

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First who are you as a country to think you have the right to military intervene in the future of another country?

When said country keeps saying Israel should be wiped off the map and has been waging war (although by proxy) countinously for decades.
Saying that Iran "never started a war" is naive and weak. Hezbollah is a proxy of Iran, they don't move without orders from Tehran

I hope this deal works but I highly doubt it...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[SkyDekker 1,133]

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No, but there was an "Israel" in that land 2000 ago, which is more than you could say for most other nations. who are you to decide what timeline is relevant and what is not?

So you would have no problem with getting evicted from your town so it can be returned to the natives then?

Don't worry, we'll build a nice little walled compound you can live in.

[grue 1]

falxori

When said country keeps saying Israel should be wiped off the map

Incorrect.

cavete terrae.

[Andy9o8 0]

grue

***
When said country keeps saying Israel should be wiped off the map

Incorrect.

Just because "That One Translation" of "That One Particular Statement" was inexact, doesn't negate the clear fact that the Iranian leadership repeatedly (including recently) has made statements incredibly hostile to the notion of Israel's very existence. Google it, Grue, read them for yourself. It's not just one statement, or just one of their leaders; and they can't all be conveniently brushed-off as "mistranslations" from the Farsi. Then think about how you'd interpret one of your neighbors calling you "a cancer" or "a virus" and arming your enemies who are trying to kill as many of your family as possible. Read, boy.

.

[rickjump1 0]

Darius11

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What kind of government would you say Iran has today? I have always had the impression that Islam and democracy are incompatible. I'm willing to listen.

Iran It is a theocracy, and I agree religion does not belong in the government. ANY RELIGION. I do not believe in royalty, a king or a queen I find any of those ideas so goddamn stupid it hurts my head.
That’s my personal view, however I am not arrogant enough to think that’s the only view that should be allowed and all others are evil.

I personally think we the US has the best idea, a constitutional government a democratic republic.

Thank you.

When the Iranian theocracy develops nuclear weapons, this will induce others in the region to follow. Do you think the nuclear proliferation of the region is healthy for the overall stability of the region? Personally, I don't see it.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.