Will there be a second civil war in the USA?

[Andy9o8 0]

Yawn. I'm waiting for you to defend Bush & Quayle's physical cowardice and de facto draft dodgery. Throw Cheney into the mix, too, while you're at it.

[RonD1120 58]

Andy9o8

Yawn. I'm waiting for you to defend Bush & Quayle's physical cowardice and de facto draft dodgery. Throw Cheney into the mix, too, while you're at it.

I told you I have no defense. Are you going to answer or not?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

I gather from your responses that you were a draft dodger during the Vietnam War.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[weekender 0]

billvon

>While your at it, might as well spit out the "Republicans want dirty air and dirty water"
>line along with the "have a cup of frack-water?"

Why? Are you one of those people who has to pigeonhole everyone into one of two categories? I know plenty of republicans who don't want dirty air or water, and it would be as silly to drink fracking fluid as it would be to drink cooling water discharge from a nuclear power plant. (More silly, actually.)

>I agree, utilities should have never been deregulated. Why? Because while the end
>product was a "Free market", the intake of energy was still "regulated."

Disagree there. The primary constraint is not the intake of energy - the primary constraint is that utilities have a monopoly on power poles. Another utility cannot come along and put up their own poles. And thus there is an inherent monopoly with any utility.

You can still run them as a free market - but the artificial distortion caused by the above monopoly has to be managed very carefully. When it's not you get Enron.

And keep in mind that for the most part Enron was simply trying to make money like every company does. They will do whatever they have to to make money, including things like polluting water and air, nailing fire doors shut so employees can't take breaks and buying up railroads and then banning competitors from using them.

I dont think you guys understand the energy markets. Enron committed fraud. they were an energy trading firm who booked fake profits from real time electric trading. it had nothing to do with a regulated or unregulated utilities. All electric providers, those in regulated and unregulated markets, trade real time electric. you cannot just turn on and off a giant turbine. electricity cannot be stored, at that level, so you sell off what you are not using. This is how the power grid works, before and after Enron. it has nothing to do with regulations.

you both might have a point but your facts are off with Enron. It was not what they did that was a problem. it was that they did it in a fraudulent manner. without electric trading we would have brown outs. also, every market has as mix of regulated and unregulated providers. it works fine as long as you do not willfully commit fraud.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[wmw999 2,148]

Billvon was born during the Vietnam war. I'm not sure he was eligible for the draft.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,434]

>I gather from your responses that you were a draft dodger during the Vietnam War.

Nope. But I can see why you would think that.

[DaVinci 0]

billvon

>National Guard service, what is there to defend? That was an acceptable route at the time.

Nothing wrong with that. In fact that's much more honorable than serving on the front lines in Vietnam and getting wounded in the course of protecting your men.

Of course, both of those pale in comparison to the even braver people who run away choose a new place to make their stand.

Like Clinton?

[Andy9o8 0]

wmw999

Billvon was born during the Vietnam war.

The ultimate dodge!

[billvon 2,434]

>Like Clinton?

In this case, like Ron.

[kelpdiver 2]

jgoose71

So tell me why in 2010, GE earned $14 Billion in profits and paid no taxes (actually got government hand outs) while small businesses in the U.S. paid the highest tax rates in the world?

And how is the little man supposed to compete under those circumstances?

for starters, because it's not actually true.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/04/04/the-truth-about-ges-tax-bill/

Also note that GE lost a substantial amount of money in 2008 and 2009 as GE Capital became one of the most significant divisions up till the crash. Losses that carried over.

[Skyrad 0]

RonD1120

***Remember Kerry was a member of VVAW, and testified in those days, too.

I have a feeling that Ron disagrees with anti-war protesters.

Wendy P.

Fargin hippies...

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

I dont think you guys understand the energy markets. Enron committed fraud. they were an energy trading firm who booked fake profits from real time electric trading. it had nothing to do with a regulated or unregulated utilities. All electric providers, those in regulated and unregulated markets, trade real time electric. you cannot just turn on and off a giant turbine. electricity cannot be stored, at that level, so you sell off what you are not using. This is how the power grid works, before and after Enron. it has nothing to do with regulations.

you both might have a point but your facts are off with Enron. It was not what they did that was a problem. it was that they did it in a fraudulent manner. without electric trading we would have brown outs. also, every market has as mix of regulated and unregulated providers. it works fine as long as you do not willfully commit fraud.

Weekender - you're talking about Enron's accounting fraud, but I believe he was speaking about the way they fucked with California, and yes, that did include turning off giant turbines to spike the pricing. They, among the other providers, played a lot of games in the name of actual profits, and showed that regulations were a bit inadequate for a basic need like power.

[regulator 0]

billvon

>Like Clinton?

In this case, like Ron.

------------------------------------------------
Its pretty obvious liberals are only willing to use others in the military to do their bidding for them. Guys like billvon and andy serving the country? Thats laughable.

I'm sure the first time you had a drill sergeant in your faces you would wet your underwear.

[wmw999 2,148]

John Kerry served his country. You probably think he's a liberal. There are ex-military liberals here on dz.com as well.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

regulator

Its pretty obvious liberals are only willing to use others in the military to do their bidding for them. Guys like billvon and andy serving the country? Thats laughable.

Haven't seen bill advocate the use of our military very often. I do know he has served his country in the development of cellular technology. It's dubious to assert that he was needed in Desert Storm, the only conflict during which he was of the age for soldiering.

But this is all, of course, a silly attempt to dodge the incredible inconsistency where GOP explains away Shrub, who couldn't even meet his national guard obligations, or Chaney or Quayle, as patriots while guys who actually served, like Gore or Kerry, are somehow traitors.

It was a lot easier for the GOP up till about 1996, when the party still had WWII veterans like Bob Dole, to face against draft dodgers like Clinton. But they should have been able to foresee what would come, since they by and large skipped the Vietnam war.

On the plus side, the politicians caught up by the draft are now entering their 60s, so soon the issue will be put to bed. But not the GOP hypocrisy on the subject.

[Andy9o8 0]

Here are a few famous Republicans and Conservatives to consider:

Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

Tom Delay: did not serve.

Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Trent Lott: did not serve.

John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

Jeb Bush: did not serve.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.

Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

Vin Weber: did not serve.

Richard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Richard Shelby: did not serve.

Jon! Kyl: did not serve.

Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.

Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies.

B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

John M. McHugh: did not serve.

JC Watts: did not serve.

Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback.

Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

John Engler: did not serve.

Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits & Preachers

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Michael Savage: did not serve.

George Will: did not serve.

Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Bennett: did not serve.

Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

John Wayne: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

Ralph Reed: did not serve.

Michael Medved: did not serve.

Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot back.)

[Andy9o8 0]

Here are a few famous Democrats to consider :

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army ournalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress.

Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,and Soldier's Medal.

Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

Chuck Robb: Vietnam

Howell Heflin: Silver Star

George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311. God, I love that man.

Jimmy Carter: U.S. Naval Academy; Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters.

Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII.

[Gravitymaster 0]

President George W. Bush - US Air National Guard. Served from 1968-1973. Twice promoted during his service; first, to 2nd Leutenant and then to 1st Leutenant. Honorably discharged.

President George H. W. Bush - US Navy. World War II. Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.

Secretary of State Colin Powell - US Army. Vietnam War. 4-Star General (Ret.). Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1989-1993). Awarded the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, Army Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Solder's Medal, the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge - US Army. Vietnam War. Awarded the Bronze Star for Valor, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry and the Combat Infantry Badge.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld - US Navy. Naval aviator. Served from 1954-1957.

Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) - US Air Force. World War II. Awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai Medal awarded by the Republic of China.

Senator Bob Dole (R-KS) (Ret.) - US Army. World War II. Awarded two Purple Hearts and the Bronze Star.

President Gerald Ford - US Navy. World War II. Served from 1942-1946.

Senator John McCain (R-AZ) - US Navy. Vietnam War. Awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) - US Army. Vietnam War. Awarded two Purple Hearts and several other decorations.

Congressman Duke Cunningham (R-CA) - US Navy. Vietnam War. Nominated for the Medal of Honor. Awarded the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations.

Congressman Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) - US Marine Corps. Vietnam War. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and Navy Commendation Medal.

Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX) - US Air Force. Korean and Vietnam War. POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973.

Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) - US Army Reserves. Served from 1973-1986.

Congresswoman Heather Wilson (R-NM) - US Air Force. Served from 1978-1989.

[kelpdiver 2]

as I said, the GOP was well represented in WWII. You listed a whopping 7 that served in a war past that war. There's really no way to dress this up as impressive.

Also seemed a bit of a reach to include a guy that's been dead for nearly 7 years (Ford). Might as well bring in JFK, then.

[billvon 2,434]

>Its pretty obvious liberals are only willing to use others in the military to do their bidding for them.

Nope - I don't want to attack random Middle Eastern countries, so I don't really want anyone to do anybody's bidding.

>I'm sure the first time you had a drill sergeant in your faces you would wet your
>underwear.

Not even a very good troll.

[RonD1120 58]

It appears that the Democratic Party is spurred on by war mongers. This seems to be further substantiated by the fact that in my life WWII, Korea and Vietnam were supported by Democrat Party presidents.

IMO, the Democrats politicize war and Republicans make money from them. The military industrial complex requires both parties. The new bipartisan move is toward international socialism.

It is called Progressive Liberalism.

IMO, war with its associated freedom, liberty and sense of personal achievement and victory is preferable to socialism with its associated mediocrity and angst.

These are activities of life that obfuscate the true purpose of God's plan. That plan is to live in constant relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. It is possible to have that relationship whether you are a dove or a hawk.

So will there be another civil war in America?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[powerofbinary 0]

oldwomanc6

You forgot food.

People tend to get cranky when they're hungry.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/food_stamps/food_stamp_nation-SNAP.html

United States spent $75,706,080,000 dollars on Food Stamps in 2011.

The most SNAP participating states are (by % of population):

Mississippi (20.9%), Oregon (19.96%), Tennessee (19.92%), New Mexico (19.90%), Michigan (19.53%), Louisiana (19.33%) and Alabama (19.16%).

The least SNAP participating states are (by % of population):

Wyoming (6.34%), New Hampshire (8.60%), New Jersey (8.61%), Colorado (8.86%), North Dakota (8.90%), Nebraska (9.45%), Minnesota (9.47%) and California (9.74%).

[weekender 0]

kelpdiver

***
I dont think you guys understand the energy markets. Enron committed fraud. they were an energy trading firm who booked fake profits from real time electric trading. it had nothing to do with a regulated or unregulated utilities. All electric providers, those in regulated and unregulated markets, trade real time electric. you cannot just turn on and off a giant turbine. electricity cannot be stored, at that level, so you sell off what you are not using. This is how the power grid works, before and after Enron. it has nothing to do with regulations.

you both might have a point but your facts are off with Enron. It was not what they did that was a problem. it was that they did it in a fraudulent manner. without electric trading we would have brown outs. also, every market has as mix of regulated and unregulated providers. it works fine as long as you do not willfully commit fraud.

Weekender - you're talking about Enron's accounting fraud, but I believe he was speaking about the way they fucked with California, and yes, that did include turning off giant turbines to spike the pricing. They, among the other providers, played a lot of games in the name of actual profits, and showed that regulations were a bit inadequate for a basic need like power.

i was not aware of Enron shutting down any power plants. I'm sorry, i believe you are confusing them with Duke, who did get caught with "power outages", which were fraudulent. Enron did not. i could be wrong but i consulted an energy analyst in Houston and he confirms my belief.

What they did was called a "sling shot trade". It was technically legal but very unethical. Cali had price caps for local power but would pay up for import power. Enron traders would buy in Cali, sell to Nevada, then buy it back at a small mark up. they could then sell it back to Cali at a profit with no risk. an obvious gaming of Cali's price caps. the Cali Phd's setting rates and policy underestimated the traders ethics. This was not a crime though and no one was punished for it criminally.

What brought Enron down was NOT energy trading BUT financial fraud. they reported profits they did not have. So energy regulation played no part in it. you could argue it was financial regulation that failed. I would have to agree but that was no ones argument.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[kelpdiver 2]

weekender

What brought Enron down was NOT energy trading BUT financial fraud. they reported profits they did not have. So energy regulation played no part in it. you could argue it was financial regulation that failed. I would have to agree but that was no ones argument.

And again, no one was talking about what brought Enron down. The discussion was about how these regulated monopolies did not act in the public's interest, but instead pursued profits, like any other purely capitalistic company.

Also pretty sure that Enron got caught playing the shutdown game. Again done in quasi legal, but highly unethical manners. But it really doesn't matter which of them it was for this discussion.

[DaVinci 0]

So you only listed bad republicans and good dems.... Yep, no bias there.

How about you list the all Dems that did not serve and all the R's that did as well?

Or would that not fit your agenda?