NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

[quade 3]

Answered in post #34 of this thread.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

Bignugget

So...your real worry is after you show up on their radar for all that stuff you mentioned....they will decide its criminal behavior and come after you?

I for one am not particularly worried about them seeing my forum posts and deciding im really what they are looking for.

I can see the argument. It's like when you have that joint on you in the car, and the cop asks to search.

"If you have nothing to hide why can't I search?" It sure is nice to say, because the big bad govt. cant look at my stuff without my say so.

But since you cannot and will not ever be able to stop electronic surveillance....don't look up kiddy porn, and stop worrying.

ETA: Unless you are Gene Hackman in "Enemy Of The State"

My worry is not ex post facto criminalization. My concern is disparate treatment based on uncontrolled bureaucratic discretion without any true legislative oversight or reasonable recourse.
You seem comfortable living in a surveillance state. While I know nothing will ever be forgotten ever again, that doesn't mean we have to accept or advocate out government doing. I've never been one to sit happily while someone says "if you have nothing to hide them you have nothing to worry about." Generally preceded by "I'm from the government; I'm here to help."

ETA: Maybe the even the FISA court agreed with me.
Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance

Quote

In the midst of revelations that the government has conducted extensive top-secret surveillance operations to collect domestic phone records and internet communications, the Justice Department was due to file a court motion Friday in its effort to keep secret an 86-page court opinion that determined that the government had violated the spirit of federal surveillance laws and engaged in unconstitutional spying.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

The problem is not just the original patriot act. The problem is that it has constantly been expanded, both by agencies stretching and congress broadening the law.

NSA Prism program taps in to user data of Apple, Google and others

Not only was the patriot act renewed in 2012 under president Obama, they also passed the Fisa Amendments Act in December 2012. Couple that with the scary parts of NDAA 2012 and other laws in the last four years, and it isn't a pretty picture.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 3]

See post #34 of this thread.

So tell me something I don't know.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 187]

rushmc

Anyone want to bet if this just is about Verison?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20main-2%20Special%20trail:Network%20front%20-%20special%20trail:Position1

Quote

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing

The thing that impresses me most is that anyone is even the least bit surprised by all this.

According to this Financial Times article, the U.S. Gov't coughs up about $800 a year per taxpayer to perform electronic surveillance and analysis. What would anyone expect them to do with this funding?

It seems that we are doomed to spend resources we don't have on a series of fool's errands in the name of security. Richard Rhodes' trilogy 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb,' 'Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb' and 'Arsenals of Folly' did a pretty good job of describing how we tied up the best and brightest minds of a generation with the task of putting us on the road to receivership in the quest of achieving the capability of eliminating most, if not all, life on this planet.

Now we are tying up some of the best and brightest minds of another generation with the task of putting us into receivership with the goal of eliminating anything resembling privacy (among other equally admirable ends).

I suppose the source of my cynicism regarding Governmental excesses comes from overexposure to the thoughts of long-haired violent revolutionaries in my youth, to wit:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

George Washington

There is little to be said for either complacency or tilting at windmills; per 'Bea's Song' by the Cowboy Junkies, "you can always see it coming, but you can never stop it."

The only thing that seems to enhance the likelihood of surviving any disaster is to be somewhere else while it is occurring. The big question is where can one be that will be unaffected by the shitstorm that is now unfolding?

There aren't enough lifeboats, but hey, we're unsinkable, right?


Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think.

Winsor

[ayevee8toryear 0]

http://gizmodo.com/anonymous-just-leaked-a-trove-of-nsa-documents-511854773?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_twitter&utm_source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Quote

In the wake of last night’s revelation that everyone in the world has a creepy NSA-shaped stalker, defenders of online liberty and generally angry internet people Anonymous have leaked a treasure trove of NSA documents, including seriously important stuff like the US Department of Defense’s ‘Strategic Vision’ for controlling the internet.

Quote

Greetings Netizens, and Citizens of the world.

Anonymous has obtained some documents that "they" do not want you to see, and much to "their" chagrin, we have found them, and are giving them to you.
These documents prove that the NSA is spying on you, and not just Americans. They are spying on the citizens of over 35 different countries.
These documents contain information on the companies involved in GiG, and Prism.
Whats GiG you might ask? well...

The GIG will enable the secure, agile, robust, dependable, interoperable data sharing environment for the Department where warfighter, business, and intelligence users share knowledge on a global network that facilitates information superiority, accelerates decision-making, effective operations, and Net-Centric transformation.

Like we said, this is happening in over 35 countries, and done in cooperation with private businesses, and intelligence partners world wide.
We bring this to you, So that you know just how little rights you have. Your privacy and freedoms are slowly being taken from you, in closed door meetings, in laws buried in
bills, and by people who are supposed to be protecting you.

Download these documents, share them, mirror them, don't allow them to make them disappear. Spread them wide and far. Let these people know, that we will not be silenced, that we will not be taken advantage of, and that we are not happy about this unwarranted, unnecessary, unethical spying of our private lives, for the monetary gain of the 1%.

And now, the candy: http://thedocs.hostzi.com/

Mirrors:
http://t.co/XVlZQ53Zhp
http://t.co/JYUHrhi3Ue
http://t.co/qR9PRzySbq
http://t.co/yGw2sP976W
http://t.co/MrmBj4kma5

We are Anonymous
We do not forgive
We do not forget
and by now,
You should expect us

http://pastebin.com/MPpT7xaf

[jcd11235 0]

winsor

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

George Washington

"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is so difficult to know if they are correctly attributed." - Winston Churchill

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[quade 3]

The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

Yes, Yes indeed, if the media has anything to say about it, you are exactly right.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

turtlespeed

***The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

Yes, Yes indeed, if the media has anything to say about it, you are exactly right.

Nothing to do with "the media." Everything to do with the attention span and apathy of an electorate who votes more American Idol than the American government.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[davjohns 1]

Bignugget

***

Quote

Honestly though, dont google a bunch of bomb ingredients, or kiddy porn....or KILL OBAMA, and you are in the pile of 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 billion google searches a day that don't get flagged.....

What's the problem again?

How about the fact that you may have just pinged because you typed a whole set of double ungoodthink words?

And seeing that I down time with curious and educated minds, I occasionally look up things they'd frown on. Yeah, I looked up (and found) AQ's Inspire magazine. I read about the Feds loosing a half ton of explosives because they weren't following their own guidelines. I spend time with a few EOD guys that, if not friends, are at least respected associates. I helped a postgrad with his work on encryption and wireless communication, specifically as it relates to intercepting and decoding signals from a ground station to remote vehicles. (Overriding them was specifically not covered, and while not a simple expansion, it's not a huge leap either)

I've had interesting conversations with far smarter and more experienced people than me about vulnerabilities of people and places. Even the secret service can only do so much, and nobody else in this hemisphere has that level of protection.

Oh, and just for those nameless faceless ones, jihad holy war revenge great satan homeland bombing attack kill murder Americans president target revenge Allahu Ackbar.

And FYI there are four or five billion google searches a day.

So...your real worry is after you show up on their radar for all that stuff you mentioned....they will decide its criminal behavior and come after you?

I for one am not particularly worried about them seeing my forum posts and deciding im really what they are looking for.

I can see the argument. It's like when you have that joint on you in the car, and the cop asks to search.

"If you have nothing to hide why can't I search?" It sure is nice to say, because the big bad govt. cant look at my stuff without my say so.

But since you cannot and will not ever be able to stop electronic surveillance....don't look up kiddy porn, and stop worrying.

ETA: Unless you are Gene Hackman in "Enemy Of The State"

Will you be available Monday? The guys are going to be by your house to install the surveillance cameras. You don't really have to be there. It's not like they don't know their way around your place by now. After all, you don't have anything to hide, right?

What's the old quote about how the person did nothing when they came for the Jews, because he wasn't a Jew? We are on the really bad part of an incredibly slippery slope.

I'm reminded of another old quote about the Tree of Liberty and the means of refreshing it. I didn't think it would happen in my lifetime, but this past week's revelations are causing me to wonder.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[quade 3]

You do realize there is an election coming up in 2014; right?

You don't need to kill anyone, just vote their asses out.

This is primarily a congressional issue at this point.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I'm reminded of another old quote about the Tree of Liberty and the means of refreshing it. I didn't think it would happen in my lifetime, but this past week's revelations are causing me to wonder.

Seems to me that some of the ultimate, and most direct, tools of governmental tyranny are the means of its police state, i.e., its military, as well as civilian LEOs. In that very context, and with all due respect, Sir, do you not introspect about your own career choices?

[jcd11235 0]

quade

This is primarily a congressional issue at this point.

I don't see anything unconstitutional about monitoring metadata, and the courts apparently do not, either.

In other words, in order to make the practice illegal would require either a SCOTUS ruling overturning previous rulings or an amendment to the Constitution.

Personally, I find it difficult to feel outraged that the government has the ability to analyze non-private metadata just like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, grocery stores, etc., do.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[quade 3]

They dont need to make it illegal, althought they did make it legal to begin with. They could just stop funding it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

******The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

Yes, Yes indeed, if the media has anything to say about it, you are exactly right.

Nothing to do with "the media." Everything to do with the attention span and apathy of an electorate who votes more American Idol than the American government.

And you think that American idol is performed live in every house and gathering place?

I believe that the media stations are used, are they not? If they don't want people to forget and ignore, they give updates on the subject. They don't want to have that out in the open any longer than the absolutely must, so they will do what they can.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 18]

quade

The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

It does not happen often but, I agree with you

Now

the pushing and shoving has started to see who ends up under the bus

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/congress-obama-surveillance-tracking/2013/06/08/id/508783

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

quade

They dont need to make it illegal, althought they did make it legal to begin with. They could just stop funding it.

Alternately, we could save our outrage for actual abuses of power.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 18]

quade

******The really depressing thing; as soon as the next "crisis" hits, this will all be pushed back into the recesses of the general public's attention. Six months from now it will be all but forgotten. Six years from now it will be rediscovered by them. There will be a brief moment of outrage, then the cycle will continue.

Yes, Yes indeed, if the media has anything to say about it, you are exactly right.

Nothing to do with "the media." Everything to do with the attention span and apathy of an electorate who votes more American Idol than the American government.

Now we are back to disagreeing

It has everything to do with the media

Remember Watergate?

Not a comparison but more remembering of how they would not let go

In the end today however, I think the media is more afraid of NOT being invited to the next Washington party than NOT reporting the news

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

"The Media" reports on what the public responds to.

"The Public" has an incredibly short attention span now.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[davjohns 1]

Andy9o8

Quote

I'm reminded of another old quote about the Tree of Liberty and the means of refreshing it. I didn't think it would happen in my lifetime, but this past week's revelations are causing me to wonder.

Seems to me that some of the ultimate, and most direct, tools of governmental tyranny are the means of its police state, i.e., its military, as well as civilian LEOs. In that very context, and with all due respect, Sir, do you not introspect about your own career choices?

No doubt. I am also mindful that military is often the means of overthrowing government and starting over. I have no idea how this will play out.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

quade

You do realize there is an election coming up in 2014; right?

You don't need to kill anyone, just vote their asses out.

This is primarily a congressional issue at this point.

That doesn't seem to be working. Majority rule has become an interesting problem. The majority seem to be poorly informed and willing to trade basic freedoms for promises of safety and prosperity. This might not be new, but it does seem to require an end somewhere, doesn't it?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[quade 3]

So...what's your answer again? Take a small minority of people to the capital and start "watering the tree"?

Good fuggin' luck with that. That's just not going to end well for you.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[davjohns 1]

quade

So...what's your answer again? Take a small minority of people to the capital and start "watering the tree"?

Good fuggin' luck with that. That's just not going to end well for you.

I'm sorry if I made it appear that I am advocating anything. I'm not. I'm pointing out that governmental actions are getting pretty outrageous. It tends to piss off some people. There are plenty of sheeple that will do nothing. But some historians suggest that the American Revolution involved roughly 10% of the population. If you pay any attention to the world, there are people getting pissed off and violent in many places. I don't want the US to become one of them. But the government seems to be working against my desires on this issue.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Andy9o8 0]

One possible, yet reasonable, interpretation of your aggregated posts in this thread might be that (a) you think it's possible that during your lifetime the US military will launch a coup d'etat against the civilian government of the United States, and (b) you as a member of said military might be willing to participate therein.