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rushmc

NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

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Bertt

Well, there was this buddy of mine in grammar school named Nostradamus.
Truthfully, one of the most worrisome things about this type of program is that three-letter agencies will become so focused on this sort of mindless information gathering that they will replace a useful art with an expensive and counter-productive science.



I'll take objective, science based intel gathering over the useful art BS methodology that brought us the Iraq war.
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You and rushmc should review what you wrote in defense of the "Patriot" Act back some 8 - 10 years ago before you continue with your whining about the consequences.

I just did (Search function works well). Makes you look like a pair of hypocrites now.:D

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Kennedy

******What I'm concerned with is verification of stated "facts."



I fail to see where you were concerned with verification of the "facts" provided in the Guardian article. So it's okay to accept a reporter's word at face value, but not the word of someone actually familiar with the program being discussed, right?

Like I said, it's tin-foil hat time.

The article in the guardian prompted a response from the White House, DCI and DNI, and Sen Feinstein and other "read-in" congresscritters. There's no doubt the software named and programs described exist in the intelligence community. The only question is how accurate the specifics were. Some were a little too Hollywood, and they're backing off a bit, but the substance remains substantially unchanged.

When it comes to DNI talking points, well, he's allowed to lie to congress even in closed hearings if POTUS oks it, so his comments to the public should always be well-seasoned. Or maybe you believed that carnivore never existed, and they never eavesdropped on American phone calls. I've got a bridge to sell you. Great location, recently updated, heavy traffic. Just privatized.

And then there is are the perks of lying, you get a promotion after.:)
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Gravitymaster

*********It's funny how the very people who, on these very forums fully supported the GOP designed "Patriot" Act as signed into law by G.W. Bush (R), are now up in arms over its inevitable consequences. WTF did you expect?



I am amazed at how some on this board are unable to grasp the fact that the scope of the original Patriot Act has changed and what's going on today is unrecognizable. It's almost as if some are looking for false self-validation for some reason. Strange.

How many GOP senators and congressmen voted for the original act? How many voted for its renewal?

How many posters to this forum spoke out against it when it was passed? NOT YOU!

I'm reminded of someone I know I'll call "Timmy" Timmy loves to look at current events and proclaim, "I knew that would happen". He's also known to make all kinds of "predictions" many of which turn out to be untrue, but he likes to ignore those and only focus on the ones that are true. Pretty pathetic of "Timmy" isn't it? Have you ever known someone like "Timmy"?


This guy:

"If members of Congress did not know what they were voting on, then I think that's their responsibility a lot more than it is the government's"; Sen John McCain (R), 6/9/2013

Fortunately I am on record right here in this forum as opposing the Iraq war, disbelieving the WMD claims, and opposing the Patriot Act, right from the start.

Unlike you or most of your ilk.

Use the search function to see how you now contradict your previously stated positions. :P:P
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Where does that Buck Stop, again?

I believe I can find numerous times during Bush's term that you used this meme.

Quote

"The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman, who kept a sign with that phrase on his desk in the Oval Office.[5] (Footage from Jimmy Carter's "Address to the Nation on Energy" shows the sign still on the desk during Carter's administration.) The phrase refers to the fact that the President has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.

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Gravitymaster

Where does that Buck Stop, again?

I believe I can find numerous times during Bush's term that you used this meme.

Quote

"The buck stops here" is a phrase that was popularized by U.S. President Harry S. Truman, who kept a sign with that phrase on his desk in the Oval Office.[5] (Footage from Jimmy Carter's "Address to the Nation on Energy" shows the sign still on the desk during Carter's administration.) The phrase refers to the fact that the President has to make the decisions and accept the ultimate responsibility for those decisions.



Where have I stated anywhere, anytime, that I approve of any aspect of the Patriot Act?

You, OTOH, are on record supporting it (but only prior to Obama being inaugurated).
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Gravitymaster

Just as you support the IRS targeting groups based on their political leanings.



heh, and he is on record here saying he supported that.:)
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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turtlespeed

***Just as you support the IRS targeting groups based on their political leanings.



heh, and he is on record here saying he supported that.:)
Not that I expect accuracy from you, but what I actually wrote is that the IRS should target those who think taxes are theft.
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Gravitymaster

You apparently approve of Obamas extension of the Patriot Act. Obamas version is Bush x 100. Nice you are ok with that. You do support drone strikes on Americans, right? Just as you support the IRS targeting groups based on their political leanings.



Where have I stated anywhere, anytime, that I approve of any aspect of the Patriot Act?

Please provide a link to any post I've made that suggests that.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***You apparently approve of Obamas extension of the Patriot Act. Obamas version is Bush x 100. Nice you are ok with that. You do support drone strikes on Americans, right? Just as you support the IRS targeting groups based on their political leanings.



Where have I stated anywhere, anytime, that I approve of any aspect of the Patriot Act?

Please provide a link to any post I've made that suggests that.

You apparently voted for 4 more years of Obama policies. You can't just Cherry pick those you agree with and discard the ones you don't.

Where does that Buck stop, once again?

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Gravitymaster

******You apparently approve of Obamas extension of the Patriot Act. Obamas version is Bush x 100. Nice you are ok with that. You do support drone strikes on Americans, right? Just as you support the IRS targeting groups based on their political leanings.



Where have I stated anywhere, anytime, that I approve of any aspect of the Patriot Act?

Please provide a link to any post I've made that suggests that.

You apparently voted for 4 more years of Obama policies. You can't just Cherry pick those you agree with and discard the ones you don't.

Where does that Buck stop, once again?

Translation - you can't find even one :P and are making a lame attempt at distraction.

I, on the other hand, can find several of yours in support of the Patriot Act.
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[Reply]Fortunately I am on record right here in this forum as opposing the Iraq war, disbelieving the WMD claims, and opposing the Patriot Act, right from the start.



As am I. Here's the thing: I hated the shit when bush did it. I hate the shit when Obama does it. Take a look at the Patriot Act - all the POTUS has done is ask for extensions of the sunset date. The last extension would have expired in 2012, but Obama asked for one to go through 2013 - PAST the election. Get it? And the Republicans gave it to him.

As a note, I wrote this post over seven years ago:
[Url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2071971#2071971[/url]

Here's the nugget:
[Quote]he Commernce clause allows the government to regulate any conduct that has any effect on interstate commerce. The new law, passed via the commerce clause, ensures that anyone who utilizes public transportation routes or interstate communications equipment waives constitutional rights to warrantless searches. Thus, anyone who uses a telephone, receives mail, or even proceeds outside of their houses, waives these rights.

Therefore, considering the commerce clause jurisprudence of the last 70 years, it seems a logical extension of federal powers to do so.

So, we can see that warrantless searches are allowable under the commerce clause. The founding fathers did not consider telecommunications, and therefore we can create our own laws about it."



Damned if we aren't looking at this type of stuff that started that year.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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[Reply]Thus far there isn't any credible indication that the program goes beyond what the NDI claims



Nope. There isn't. Last week there was no credible evidence that cell phone calls were being catalogued. Furrhermore, if anyone wants to provide creddible information about what"s going on, that person better be somewhere without an extradition treaty...


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Gravitymaster

Translation: You voted for him and thus for his policies.



Incorrect. I am an anti-Republican, not a Democrat.

You, however, ARE on record as supporting the Patriot Act.

Until now, of course.

I am on record as consistently against it.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***Translation: You voted for him and thus for his policies.



Incorrect. I am an anti-Republican, not a Democrat.

You, however, ARE on record as supporting the Patriot Act.

Until now, of course.

I am on record as consistently against it.

You are also on record as being a shill for the democrats and Obama
So
what is your point
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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kallend

***Translation: You voted for him and thus for his policies.



Incorrect. I am an anti-Republican, not a Democrat.

You, however, ARE on record as supporting the Patriot Act.

Until now, of course.

I am on record as consistently against it.

What I supported is not what being done now. You and your ilk put Obama in office. Deal with it and stop trying to blame others. You own this, plain and simple.

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jcd11235


Your analogy might make sense if the kid was known to be studying porn production in school.

Yes, the NDI confirmed PRISM. Thus far there isn't any credible indication that the program goes beyond what the NDI claims.

Is it possible that it is more pervasive than the NDI acknowledges? Sure. It's also possible that fire breathing dragons exist. The burden of proof lies with those claiming the NDI is lying or that fire-breathing dragons exist.



It's amazing to watch the full court press you're putting into defending this. I don't think anyone else is remotely close to your level of cheerleading.

A man known for lifelong adultery gets outed by a witness and now tells his wife "yeah, I slept with her, but I didn't enjoy it. And I never penetrated. And I absolutely, definitely did not go anywhere near those sweet pieces of ass that that were her friends."

You're telling us that we should believe him, and that the burden of truth is on those who don't trust him to speak truthfully. Not a fucking chance.

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kelpdiver

***
Your analogy might make sense if the kid was known to be studying porn production in school.

Yes, the NDI confirmed PRISM. Thus far there isn't any credible indication that the program goes beyond what the NDI claims.

Is it possible that it is more pervasive than the NDI acknowledges? Sure. It's also possible that fire breathing dragons exist. The burden of proof lies with those claiming the NDI is lying or that fire-breathing dragons exist.



It's amazing to watch the full court press you're putting into defending this. I don't think anyone else is remotely close to your level of cheerleading.

A man known for lifelong adultery gets outed by a witness and now tells his wife "yeah, I slept with her, but I didn't enjoy it. And I never penetrated. And I absolutely, definitely did not go anywhere near those sweet pieces of ass that that were her friends."

You're telling us that we should believe him, and that the burden of truth is on those who don't trust him to speak truthfully. Not a fucking chance.

Since the NDI and representatives of the companies that supposedly provided direct access to servers all unequivocally denied such unilateral access, no actual evidence has been presented, and the leaker is hiding out in China (because they're such champions of free speech and transparency in government, no doubt), yes, I'm inclined to call bullshit on the leaker. Sure, it could be everybody else who is lying, but the probability is pretty damn low.

It might be that Snowden actually thought the government was doing something illegal, and, for whatever reason, embellished the facts when speaking to reporters. Or he may have just had an axe to grind. Either way, I haven't seen anything that lends him any credibility.
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