Christianity and Politics

[diverborg 0]

Ok, first off I consider myself a follower of Christ, and I'm writing this out of a bit of frustration to how I see the majority of the Christrian right wing acting on here, in the media, and the never ending posts I see on my FB newsfeed that are not only lacking in love, but scripturally wrong. I wonder if Christians actually followed Christ's example, and Paul's teachings in the new testament, if we would have such a division between us.

First of all, people are not the enemy. God isn't a republican or democrat. Did you know Billie Graham is a registered democrat.

Do you think passing all the laws in the world are somehow going to make us a holier nation? When did it become our duty to police the world? Paul talks of "serving all" to "save some"

Quit saying this is the most important election in history. Shenanigans!! We've said that every year I've been alive, and I'm tired of people saying we will bring God's wrath on our country unless we elect "His" choice. Did God tell you who his candidate is?

Since we want to keep playing the wrath of God card, better re-read the whole Sodom and Gomorrah story a little more carefully. God said he would spare the city if he could find even one righteous.

We aren't living in a theocratic Israel. That was an extremely corrupted theocracy which Jesus came to overturn. How we interact in society completely changed from that point and we became free to be in the world not of the world, and serve the unbelievers with the love Christ served us with. Quit buying into these fear-mongering talk radio shows that are making money off instilling fear into believers. We are called to be submissive to our governing leaders. God is bigger than politics and even your fears. Throughout history and the world the church has flourished under persecution, and it becomes stagnant and counterproductive in a society where we think we run the show.

I know the first thing a Christian is going to try to rebutt me with is some old testament verse about choosing a leader that upholds God's laws. If you believe what the bible says is true, that you will realize that Israel at this time was interacting with God here on earth. There was no doubt as to his existence or sovereignty within that nation, and they were at the time "God's" nation that was ruled under a theocracy which became so corrupt that God eventually overturned it himself. Today we don't live in a theocracy or even a "Christian" nation, as I get so tired of hearing. By biblical definitions we live in a pagan society and how we interact is different.

When we leverage our power over the rest of the world, then God's plan for us and the world goes backward. That wasn't our call. Our call was to serve. In history anytime this has happened it has been a black eye for the faith. Today is no different.
We serve without any expectation of return. If we don't have a single convert, we still serve unconditionally because that's what we are supposed to do.

Before you go touting it as God's plan to pass laws forbidding gay marriage, better read this verse. Is forbidding them to marry going to bring more people to Jesus? Are gays being able to marry going to change anything about your relationship to Jesus and your duty to serve others? Are more people going to decide to follow Jesus because we don't let gays marry?

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1 Corinthians 9-13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Also please re-read this passage.

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18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became mas one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

This is how we are to interact in society as Christians, not leveraging our power over society. Sure pray for our nation, you're supposed to, but quit claiming that God will judge us if we elect Obama. Romney is mormon, fyi. Most of us don't think mormons are Christians anyway? Last election we touted McCain as Mr Family values, when he's divorced and married to some women half his age. Obama is married to his first wife, and is a loving husband and father. He is the better example of family values and because he doesn't think its his place to tell others how to live, makes him less of a hypocrite than McCain was who pissed all over the sanctity of marriage, but wants to tell others what family values are.

And keep in mind, if you vow to uphold the constitution it would be a sin to break those vows. So personal freedoms and choice regardless if you like it needs to be protected. And as I've already pointed out, its not our job as Christians to tell others outside the church what to do anyway.

Anyway, just some random thoughts, take it fwiw.

[airdvr 197]

I haven't noticed any of the stuff you say is happening, but I haven't talked to my imaginary friend in the sky lately either. Can you tell I have a problem with organized religion?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DanG 1]

Thanks. I knew there were some Christians out there who actually believe in Christ's teachings. You better put your flame suit on now, maybe two.

- Dan G

[jclalor 12]

That's the great thing about the NT, There are millions upon millions of people who think that their own understanding of the various books is the correct one.

Billy Graham claiming to be 90 year old democrat from the south is nothing to be proud of.

[diverborg 0]

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I haven't noticed any of the stuff you say is happening, but I haven't talked to my imaginary friend in the sky lately either. Can you tell I have a problem with organized religion?

Perhaps, not as much on here as it is in the evangelical arena and my stupid facebook newsfeeds.

I've seen the quote before that "The greatest reason for atheism is Christians". I'm starting to believe it.

The world does not need more Christians, it needs more "disciples of Christ" or Mother Theresa's for that matter.

[diverborg 0]

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Thanks. I knew there were some Christians out there who actually believe in Christ's teachings. You better put your flame suit on now, maybe two.

LOL, I got thick skin, I can handle it.

[jclalor 12]

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I haven't noticed any of the stuff you say is happening, but I haven't talked to my imaginary friend in the sky lately either. Can you tell I have a problem with organized religion?

Perhaps, not as much on here as it is in the evangelical arena and my stupid facebook newsfeeds.

I've seen the quote before that "The greatest reason for atheism is Christians". I'm starting to believe it.

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The world does not need more Christians, it needs more "disciples of Christ" or Mother Theresa's for that matter.

You had to get me started on Mother Theresa.

One of her many scams;

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Mother's special relationship with Charles Keating, one of history's biggest swindlers, and the biggest thief in the history of the United States, is well known. It is not known how much Mother really got from Keating - although she did not deny that she received at least $1,250,000 - but it is known that he stole (at least) $253 million, which were the moneys of small investors. Keating also gave Mother the free use of his personal jet and in return he received her blessings and a personalised crucifix, which he carries everywhere.

In January 1992, when Keating's fraud trial was still going on in a Los Angeles court, he got more back from his special friend. She wrote a letter to the trial judge Lance Ito (who later became a household name for sitting at the O.J. Simpson trial):

Dear Honorable Lance Ito,

We do not mix up in Business or Politics or courts...I do not know anything about Mr Charles Keating's work or his business or the matters you are dealing with. ...

I only know that he has always been kind and generous to God's poor, and always ready to help whenever there was a need. Whenever someone asks me to speak to a trial judge, I always tell them the same thing. I ask them to pray, to look into their heart, and to do what Jesus would do in that circumstance. And that is what is I am asking of you, your Honor.

My gratitude to you is my prayer for you, and your work, your family and the people you are dealing with. God Bless You

M. Teresa, M.C.

After Keating's conviction and imprisonment, Paul W. Turley, the then Deputy District Attorney of Los Angeles County wrote the following letter to Mother Teresa:
Dear Mother Teresa
...The victims of Mr Keating's fraud come from a wide spectrum of society. Some were wealthy and well educated. Most were people of modest means and unfamiliar with high finance. One was, indeed a poor carpenter who did not speak English and had his life's savings stolen by Mr Keating's fraud.

The Biblical slogan of your organisation is 'As long as you did it to one of My least brethren. You did it to Me.' The 'least' of the brethren are among those whom Mr Keating fleeced without flinching... It is not uncommon for 'con' men to be generous with family, friends and charities...No church, no charity, no organisation should allow itself to be used as salve for the conscience of the criminal.

You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart - as he sentences Charles Keating - and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you. Ask yourself what Jesus would do if given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen;...

I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the 'indulgence' he desires. Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it! If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.

Sincerely Paul W. Turley

"Interestingly, this is the only occasion that Mother Teresa ever wrote to a trial judge. She was urged many times to use her influence in human rights violation cases, but she always maintained that she steered clear of politics and matters not directly connected with Jesus. Needless to say, Mr Turley never received a reply to his letter. Giving back even part of the stolen money was beyond the wildest dream of the living saint.

[rehmwa 2]

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Thanks. I knew there were some Christians out there who actually believe in Christ's teachings. You better put your flame suit on now, maybe two.

yeah, good for him

same theme with religious types - somewhere in there it states that "the righteous man" gets some kind of reward

I'm pretty sure the 'self righteous' man just gets mocked and ridiculed

too many types cross into the self righteous mode and miss the message - (pick your religion, politics, cause, etc)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airdvr 197]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDYAzaYPF0E

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[diverborg 0]

Not familiar with all of Mother Theresa's entangling's, but it was intended more as a metaphor that the term has become than it was her actual persona.

I also apologize if this is came across as self-righteous, it was more intended to stir up re-thinking our positions, and not necessarily my opinion as gospel truth.

[masterblaster72 0]

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I also apologize if this is came across as self-righteous, it was more intended to stir up re-thinking our positions, and not necessarily my opinion as gospel truth.

I don't see anything self-righteous in your approach, and your original post was well-worth the read. Much respect.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[rehmwa 2]

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I also apologize if this is came across as self-righteous, it was more intended to stir up re-thinking our positions, and not necessarily my opinion as gospel truth.

I don't see anything self-righteous in your approach, and your original post was well-worth the read. Much respect.

I agree with mblaster, my comment was that you seemed to be the real thing. respect for the comments

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diverborg 0]

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I also apologize if this is came across as self-righteous, it was more intended to stir up re-thinking our positions, and not necessarily my opinion as gospel truth.

I don't see anything self-righteous in your approach, and your original post was well-worth the read. Much respect.

I agree with mblaster, my comment was that you seemed to be the real thing. respect for the comments

That's the way I had assumed you meant it, but after re-reading my post, I thought I came across a little sel-righteous myself. Thanks for the kind words.

[Shredex 0]

"Separation of church and state" - Religion has no place in politics.

[rehmwa 2]

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"Separation of church and state" - Religion has no place in politics.

that statement is loaded with preferentially atheistic overtones - which is also not the role - it's a false oversimplification that is abused, but sounds nice to those of us that are skeptical of religious people and faith based beliefs

actually, IMHO, politics has a role to ensure people have the right to whatever religion or none they choose for themselves (unless their religion infringes on the rights of others)

other than that, absolutely

in other words - the government is not allowed to play favorites - at least that's my take on it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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You had to get me started on Mother Theresa.

One of her many scams;

***Mother's special relationship with Charles Keating,....

Sounds like she fleeced the fleecer.
Good on her!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jclalor 12]

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You had to get me started on Mother Theresa.

One of her many scams;

***Mother's special relationship with Charles Keating,....

Sounds like she fleeced the fleecer.
Good on her!

I really love your "Christian" logic when it comes to the property of a crime victim, it's very admirable. Some Christians make the question of Atheism so much easier.

[pirana 0]

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Before you go touting it as God's plan to pass laws forbidding gay marriage, better read this verse. Is forbidding them to marry going to bring more people to Jesus? Are gays being able to marry going to change anything about your relationship to Jesus and your duty to serve others? Are more people going to decide to follow Jesus because we don't let gays marry?

Well said; and reminds me of this funny:

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley