Compensation for innovation?

[shah269 0]

Compensation for innovation?

I have been attending various lectures and discussion groups since I obtained my EMBA this past January so that I may stay current with modern business practices.
One of the biggest issues on the forefront of helping pull the US and global economy out of its doldrums are innovation and creativity.
However I have noticed, that many of these “gurus” are stating that that a corporation / institution can obtain the same level of innovation and without any monetary compensation.
And I see upper management and upper middle management types eating this up. For as they see it they can have their cake and eat it to. They can have an innovative and creative workforce without the need to tax shareholders.

However I am a capitalist. I work for money not for enjoyment. I work to live not live to work. I also have two public patents and a few classified patents as well as various awards for cost cutting innovation. I would have done NONE OF THIS if it weren’t for that carrot of financial compensation. But that’s just me. And I’m not sure I represent the average worker bee.
What are your thoughts on the issue?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[rehmwa 2]

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However I am a capitalist. I work for money not for enjoyment. I work to live not live to work. I also have two public patents and a few classified patents as well as various awards for cost cutting innovation. I would have done NONE OF THIS if it weren’t for that carrot of financial compensation. But that’s just me.

why? you didn't 'really' invent them

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

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why? you didn't 'really' invent them

Hu?
Actually yes I did. I was sole inventer on a number of them.
Why?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,402]

>However I am a capitalist. I work for money not for enjoyment. I work to
>live not live to work. I also have two public patents and a few classified
>patents as well as various awards for cost cutting innovation. I would have
>done NONE OF THIS if it weren’t for that carrot of financial compensation.

I have about half a dozen patents. I would have probably done them without any financial compensation, because I like what I do. Fortunately I work for a company that sees value in innovation, and the IP work I've filed on is one part of why I make what I do now.

>Actually yes I did. I was sole inventer on a number of them. Why?

That's just an Obama bash. You know, "Obama thinks people can't invent things, that the government does it all."

[shah269 0]

Well I'm a capitalist no $$$ no innovation.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,402]

>Well I'm a capitalist no $$$ no innovation.

What does that mean? If you had a patentable idea you wouldn't help them file on it unless they paid you a massive bonus? Or would you refuse to have such ideas unless the bonuses rolled in?

I'd go about it the other way. File on a few critical patents. Bring it up during your reviews. "You know, you're making a lot of money off me. And I have a few more ideas on XXX that could make us even more money. But I also have an offer from YYY that I'm considering . . . ." Watch how fast your salary goes up.

(Of course that assumes you can deliver on that claim.)

[kallend 1,632]

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Well I'm a capitalist no $$$ no innovation.

What a boring life you must lead.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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I also have two public patents and a few classified patents...

What the hell is a classified patent? (other than an oxymoron)

[billvon 2,402]

>What the hell is a classified patent?

It's like a patent but it's even better; no one can verify it.

[shah269 0]

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I also have two public patents and a few classified patents...

What the hell is a classified patent? (other than an oxymoron)

I work for the DoD so some of the patents are not for everyone to see.

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What does that mean? If you had a patentable idea you wouldn't help them file on it unless they paid you a massive bonus? Or would you refuse to have such ideas unless the bonuses rolled in?

Yes.

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I'd go about it the other way. File on a few critical patents. Bring it up during your reviews. "You know, you're making a lot of money off me. And I have a few more ideas on XXX that could make us even more money. But I also have an offer from YYY that I'm considering . . . ." Watch how fast your salary goes up.

Well yes that's how one should go about it.
However these “experts” of innovation and creativity are starting point blank to upper management types that they can get a good level if not even an increased level of performance without ANY financial compensation.

Now please note that in the past 5 or so years the average white collar employee has increased his or her output by well over 30% thanks to technology such as black berries. Also with technology a good number of the ancillary components to an office such as secretaries and entry level work has gone away as well. After all why have an admin when I can keep track of my own time and submit it via my computer?

Now I’m not being critical of shareholders and their expectations but….I think I have a very good idea of the human condition. And I just can’t see people being so altruistic that innovative and creative people are willing and ready and able to innovate and create and simply give it away to a profit making entity and not see any compensation?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[normiss 622]

Fruit has not advanced my career in any fashion.
I'm doubtful it has for anybody.

I'm glad there are industries that were created by those that gave away their patented designs for the world to enjoy.
It has clearly paid off for them as well.
I'd bet my life on some of them.

[rehmwa 2]

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>>Actually yes I did. I was sole inventer on a number of them. Why?

That's just an Obama bash. You know, "Obama thinks people can't invent things, that the government does it all."

Mission Accomplished! The Lockbox is closed! I shot Osama (by the way, while serving in Vietnam)!

(I didn't think I'd need a narrator in this forum. but apparently I did. thanks

For your reward - I'll send you some potatoe salad.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I also have two public patents and a few classified patents...

What the hell is a classified patent? (other than an oxymoron)

Several types of special patents (or things like patents).

1 - your regular patent - substantial and publicly visible

but some we don't want visible to the public domain

2 - Like Shah notes - you can have an invention patented, but Classified for security

3 - Some companies don't submit a formal patent application for processes that are more easily stolen but the theft can't be approved. (I've gotten a lot of bonuses for those types of inventions - think of it as an informal "internal only" patent). Getting the patent, would really just let out the secret and provide no real protection. I think we called it a "trade secret"

4 - etc. etc etc

we used to bonus a lot for invention disclosures and completion of the patent process (small bonus for the submittal, medium bonus if it progresses through the patenting process, big bonus if all that and it's actually applied in our products - so one good idea could generate a bonus 3 or 4 different times throughout a 2 year period or so) - there was a whole system for that. It's pretty much gone. (disclosure rates have declined a lot since then, but not completely)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

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we used to bonus a lot for invention disclosures and completion of the patent process (small bonus for the submittal, medium bonus if it progresses through the patenting process, big bonus if all that and it's actually applied in our products - so one good idea could generate a bonus 3 or 4 different times throughout a 2 year period or so) - there was a whole system for that. It's pretty much gone. (disclosure rates have declined a lot since then, but not completely)

I have seen the same thing in all industires.....

You get what you pay for? What do you think?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[rehmwa 2]

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You get what you pay for? What do you think?

Nope - you and you employer get what you 'negotiated' for.

If someone just as clever as you is willing to work for salary and no invention bonuses while you want both - Then that guy gets hired first. If you don't like your current terms of compensation, then you have a great option. Shop around elsewhere and see if you can do better.

Or, force that other guy to demand something he doesn't want to artificially level the playing field to your demands (like in a union) to take away his personal leverage he was willing to use to get that job. Oh - and force the company to hire even fewer people since the cost of labor goes up.

It's a free market.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

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It's a free market.

Yes it is but unemployment is very high.
And the job market for even engineering types is very tight at the moment. People are staying put due to uncertainty.

And now you have a bunch of higher management types who think they can get their workforce to be innovative without any form of reward?
I just don’t see it. But that’s just me. We work to get paid. We are a capitalist society.
high

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[rehmwa 2]

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It's a free market.

Yes it is but unemployment is very high.
And the job market for even engineering types is very tight at the moment. People are staying put due to uncertainty.

And now you have a bunch of higher management types who think they can get their workforce to be innovative without any form of reward?
I just don’t see it. But that’s just me. We work to get paid. We are a capitalist society.
high

your notes

- unemployment is high
- static workforce (low turnover)
- uncertain job market

so clearly people are willing to do more for less for the sake of a little security


so how is it you do not see a natural move to fewer perks?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shah269 0]

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so how is it you do not see a natural move to fewer perks?

NO i see it! People are doing their work to do their work...
But I don't see how these guys think that they are going to get their work force to innovate at no cost?

The human condition prevents us from doing this?
Or are people that.....open?

What is to prevent the company from saying thank you for the good idea and then showing you the door?

I still see no reason why someone should be innovative if there is no money to reward innovation.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 1,632]

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Fruit has not advanced my career in any fashion.
I'm doubtful it has for anybody.

What about folks who work at Knott's Berry Farm?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

I've not been there.
I have heard they have long lines for the rides though.

[kallend 1,632]

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I've not been there.
I have heard they have long lines for the rides though.

Yeah, but once you get on you get a 3.5 hour ride!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Skwrl 56]

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Compensation for innovation?

What are your thoughts on the issue?

It's not a "capitalism vs. non-capitalism" thing at all.

Let's start with some basic concepts. In the US, if I am the inventor on a patentable invention, I am the patent's initial owner. However, in the US, it's fairly typical that employees are required (either by operation of employment law or through an invention-assignment agreement that is signed on the first day of work) to assign to their employers inventions that are created in connection with their job (the "in connection with" varies from state to state and agreement by agreement"). Generally, there is no additional consideration (payment) required to be paid to the employee-inventor. So if I come up with the cure for death at my pharmaceutical company (which would be impressive, since I work in the legal group), I don't have a right to any additional payment at all...

However, that's not universally true. In Germany, Austria, and Japan, there are "Employee - Inventor Laws". They vary from country to country, but in general they require that the employee - inventor offer the invention to their employer. If the employer elects to keep the invention, it is required by law to provide some additional consideration (payment) to the employee. If the employer doesn't want the invention, under some jurisdiction's laws, it becomes the employee's property (and they are free to commercialize it as they see fit). The amount of payment is usually negotiated by the employee and the company, however if the employee doesn't like what's being offered (or if the company thinks the employee is asking too much), they can present the matter to a board that will make a rough determination of the amount that has to be paid (based on a bunch of factors, like the commercial value of the invention, the seniority of the inventor, etc.)

Two different approaches. Both of these, it should be noted, are "capitalist". (So we don't need to turn this into the usual "ZOMG SOCIALISMS!!!" that show up in Speakers' Corner discussion...)

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Skwrl 56]

I'm replying to myself, but an added thought...

There's a similar (not the same, but similar) concept in the US under the Bayh-Dole Act of 1980. First, a little background - Bayh-Dole applies to any inventions that are made using Federal funds. A lot of universities get federal funds in one form or another (e.g., private universities that receive NIH grants, as a simple example, but there are lots of others). Technically, Bayh-Dole only applies to inventions that use those very federal dollars, but because Bayh-Dole provides a bunch of benefits (I'll explain in a sec), a lot of universities take the position that almost everything that gets invented at the university is covered by Bayh-Dole, because they don't separately track funds (not entirely true, in some cases, I'll admit). Non-academic government contractors usually limit the application of Bayh-Dole just to the specific project.

Anyway, Bayh-Dole provides that the university (or government contractor) can retain rights to inventions that it makes using federal funds, and provides a mechanism by which those inventions can be commercialized (e.g., licensed out to commercial interests), subject to a few rules. One of the rules is a requirement that the university or government contractor share some of the benefits of commercialization of the product. So while it's not quite the same as the German, Austrian, or Japanese example, it's a similar sharing of compensation.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[billvon 2,402]

>>What does that mean? If you had a patentable idea you wouldn't help
>>them file on it unless they paid you a massive bonus? Or would you refuse
>>to have such ideas unless the bonuses rolled in?

>Yes.

Hmm. In that case the company would be justified in firing you (due to your refusal to do your job) and filing on your idea anyway (since it was part of your employment contract.)

>However these “experts” of innovation and creativity are starting point
>blank to upper management types that they can get a good level if not
>even an increased level of performance without ANY financial
>compensation.

Right. From my experience it works like this:

1) Do a good job.
2) Get a raise.

Repeat.

If that process doesn't work at your company - find another company.

>Now please note that in the past 5 or so years the average white collar
>employee has increased his or her output by well over 30% thanks to
>technology such as black berries.

And decreased it 40% thanks to Facebook and dropzone.com.

>And I just can’t see people being so altruistic that innovative and
>creative people are willing and ready and able to innovate and create
>and simply give it away to a profit making entity and not see any
>compensation?

Nor can I see people being so greedy and shortsighted as to refuse to do their job until they get a bribe from management. If you are hired to innovate, then that's what you are paid for. If you do it well you'll get paid well.

[normiss 622]