Businessmen Versus Bureaucrats

[StreetScooby 5]

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In an informed society which chooses to act together, sure. Billvon has mentioned a few more examples of this concept not being true. I linked one. Your premise breaks down when you scale up to society.

I have to disagree with you. In an informed society, people walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them. That's the self stabilizing aspect you may be missing here.

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If minimum wage went away, it wouldn't take long for businesses to move the general pay scale a lot lower. At first you would have a choice, but in the long run, things would adjust in favor of the business owner. Most businesses would go for the short run gains, then cut and run if things failed.

Those employees can always choose to walk away. It may take a lot of work to do so (i.e., bettering themselves so they don't need to work at minimum wage jobs), but the choice is still their choice.

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The purpose of government should be to provide a stable national defense, basic infrastructure and intervene when something that I choose to do makes problems for someone else and that's it.

Agreed.

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Fair labor standards falls into basic infrastructure.

In general, I agree with this, but it can be abused. Are you familiar with New York's "Scaffold Law"?
http://www.scaffoldlaw.org/

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I do think that the government goes way too far in many things, but to fix that problem a whole lot is going to have to change.

Yes, people who are working to provide for their own families must vote out those politicians who take from them to give to those who don't work.

You hear people talking about their "rights". A right deals with how your allowed to conduct yourself. As soon as it starts costing other people's money, it's a privilege. That privilege comes with constraints, i.e., you need to work. Granted, that statement can use refinement in some finer points, but it's a reasonable starting point for further discussion, IMO.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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Mortgage payments fall in the realm of business transactions. You entered into that agreement, so you need to meet it.

Taxes on the other hand apparently have no limit, at least in Obama-land. It can, and has, reached a point where it's no longer voluntary.

Taxes are at a modern low as measured by burden, so this seems a bit on the theatrical side.

Taxes are not strictly voluntary - we collectively agree to them as voting American citizens. Leaving is an option, but there are few places that won't make their own demands on you.

[StreetScooby 5]

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...so this seems a bit on the theatrical side.

I'll be interested to hear how you feel about that next year.

We are all engines of karma

[Bolas 5]

There's alot of bureaucracy in business too and appears to be getting worse.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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There's alot of bureaucracy in business too and appears to be getting worse.

I'm assuming you're not referring to government related bureaucracy. In that case, let them go bankrupt. Someone else will be able to do it better and more cost effective.

We are all engines of karma

[kelpdiver 2]

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...so this seems a bit on the theatrical side.

I'll be interested to hear how you feel about that next year.

no one is thrilled to pay taxes...but I'm paying less now than I did in the late 90s. There needs to be a bit of perspective.

[StreetScooby 5]

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no one is thrilled to pay taxes...but I'm paying less now than I did in the late 90s. There needs to be a bit of perspective.

My point is - where is the limit? The Federal Government is going to far, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=HcBaSP31Be8&vg=medium (full disclosure, I have not verified information used in the video).

We are all engines of karma

[Fast 0]

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In an informed society which chooses to act together, sure. Billvon has mentioned a few more examples of this concept not being true. I linked one. Your premise breaks down when you scale up to society.

I have to disagree with you. In an informed society, people walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them. That's the self stabilizing aspect you may be missing here.

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If minimum wage went away, it wouldn't take long for businesses to move the general pay scale a lot lower. At first you would have a choice, but in the long run, things would adjust in favor of the business owner. Most businesses would go for the short run gains, then cut and run if things failed.

Those employees can always choose to walk away. It may take a lot of work to do so (i.e., bettering themselves so they don't need to work at minimum wage jobs), but the choice is still their choice.

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The purpose of government should be to provide a stable national defense, basic infrastructure and intervene when something that I choose to do makes problems for someone else and that's it.

Agreed.

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Fair labor standards falls into basic infrastructure.

In general, I agree with this, but it can be abused. Are you familiar with New York's "Scaffold Law"?
http://www.scaffoldlaw.org/

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I do think that the government goes way too far in many things, but to fix that problem a whole lot is going to have to change.

Yes, people who are working to provide for their own families must vote out those politicians who take from them to give to those who don't work.

You hear people talking about their "rights". A right deals with how your allowed to conduct yourself. As soon as it starts costing other people's money, it's a privilege. That privilege comes with constraints, i.e., you need to work. Granted, that statement can use refinement in some finer points, but it's a reasonable starting point for further discussion, IMO.

You missed my point about an informed society. i.e. We don't live in one, people constantly act without the knowledge of what they are doing, if it's a good idea or bad. Many larger business dealings (like buying a house, car, etc) are so complex people can't wrap their heads around what is going on.

You also seem not able to grasp the fact that, given no fair standards, jobs that pay appropriate wages will disappear. Without a minimum wage and with the level of unemployment we consistently have, wages will drive down in all lines of work, including educated "Bettered" jobs. Because employees will compete for them. Yeah I know, free market, but the problem is, the way the system is set up now, it will substantially destroy any hope for a reasonable life for most people, including you. (Unless of course your in the millionaires club already).

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Fast 0]

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no one is thrilled to pay taxes...but I'm paying less now than I did in the late 90s. There needs to be a bit of perspective.

My point is - where is the limit? The Federal Government is going to far, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=HcBaSP31Be8&vg=medium (full disclosure, I have not verified information used in the video).

This whole thing for you boils down to "obama care is bad" right? I mean, is that what this concept is about?

Mandatory health care is a good thing given the way the medical industry is set up right now. If you don't like the concept of mandatory health care (or pay a tax/fee/whatever you want to call it) then you should be advocating for change to the industry, not this law.

Make it so that people without healthcare don't get service. Those people can just die in the street for all I care, if we don't have some kind of mandatory health care. That's pretty brutal I know and gosh, what if I was that person, the point I'm making is that you can't have it both ways. You're not wrapping your head around the fact that it costs you no matter what because the systems already helps everyone even if they can't pay.

The fact that it's being forced by a bureaucratic movement now is irrelevant because Pandora's box is already open. Everyone gets served even if they can't pay.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[StreetScooby 5]

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This whole thing for you boils down to "obama care is bad" right? I mean, is that what this concept is about?

My point here is: the federal government should be limited. Obamacare is a prime example, IMO, where that principle has been grossly violated.

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Mandatory health care is a good thing given the way the medical industry is set up right now. If you don't like the concept of mandatory health care (or pay a tax/fee/whatever you want to call it) then you should be advocating for change to the industry, not this law.

The medical industry market has become so convoluted because of massive government intervention. I personally will be donating money to any and all candidates who favor repealing Obamacare. Have you actually looked into what it's going to do? You'll be dying when the government says it's time for you to die.

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You also seem not able to grasp the fact that, given no fair standards, jobs that pay appropriate wages will disappear. Without a minimum wage and with the level of unemployment we consistently have, wages will drive down in all lines of work, including educated "Bettered" jobs. Because employees will compete for them. Yeah I know, free market, but the problem is, the way the system is set up now, it will substantially destroy any hope for a reasonable life for most people, including you. (Unless of course your in the millionaires club already).

I do understand this.

I build software systems in the financial industry. Everyone was saying that all the work would be going to the Indians and we'd be working for beans. It did happen for a couple of years after 9/11. Then it reversed. What ended up happening was those Indians who could compete are now making top dollar on the street.

My point is markets do apply, even with employee-employer relationships. It's difficult, but it can be done.

Granted, market based systems do not guarantee a comfortable life with a 9-5 job. That's a different argument.

We are all engines of karma

[Fast 0]

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You also seem not able to grasp the fact that, given no fair standards, jobs that pay appropriate wages will disappear. Without a minimum wage and with the level of unemployment we consistently have, wages will drive down in all lines of work, including educated "Bettered" jobs. Because employees will compete for them. Yeah I know, free market, but the problem is, the way the system is set up now, it will substantially destroy any hope for a reasonable life for most people, including you. (Unless of course your in the millionaires club already).

I do understand this.

I build software systems in the financial industry. Everyone was saying that all the work would be going to the Indians and we'd be working for beans. It did happen for a couple of years after 9/11. Then it reversed. What ended up happening was those Indians who could compete are now making top dollar on the street.

My point is markets do apply, even with employee-employer relationships. It's difficult, but it can be done.

Granted, market based systems do not guarantee a comfortable life with a 9-5 job. That's a different argument.

What do you think would happen if the top 10-15 software development firms in your line of work got together and decided that it was BS that you programmers were so expensive? How about, you have to work 60 hours a week for no overtime and a 15% pay cut.

Why can't we just let that happen. I mean, if I owned stock in those companies or owned the companies outright, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me. A little collusion and we can make it better for everyone. I mean, if we cut the federal government out of managing fair labor standards and the such, there won't really be anyone to keep them from doing that. I guess people could quit, but unemployment would fill the jobs and bills have to be paid and such, so I think a lot of people would keep working.

Eventually I would be able to push out the competition too cause my cost of doing business would be less. Would let me crush some of the other developers who pay better and buy them out and cut pay there too.

I mean, it's a pretty out there hypothetical, but really who knows what's possible if we were to really have no regulation on this kinda stuff.

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The medical industry market has become so convoluted because of massive government intervention. I personally will be donating money to any and all candidates who favor repealing Obamacare. Have you actually looked into what it's going to do? You'll be dying when the government says it's time for you to die.

Yeah, it's not going to affect me much. I already have top quality non-government health care. It's irrelevant to my standard of living.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 2,435]

>My point is - where is the limit?

94%, which was the historical high in the US for income taxes.

In 1944, the lowest bracket was 23%, highest was 94%. Today the lowest bracket is 10%, highest is 35%.

Which is why complaining about how a tax increase from 35% to 38% will crush the US economy is funny.

[StreetScooby 5]

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What do you think would happen if the top 10-15 software development firms in your line of work got together and decided that it was BS that you programmers were so expensive? How about, you have to work 60 hours a week for no overtime and a 15% pay cut.

Myself, and others, would go form our own company, and not provide our services to those employers. Whatever business relationships those employers had with paying customers would be lost, and migrate to those folks who can provide the needed services.

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Eventually I would be able to push out the competition too cause my cost of doing business would be less. Would let me crush some of the other developers who pay better and buy them out and cut pay there too.

What employee would work for you? Maybe an inferior one, who couldn't produce what's needed. You would lose any contracts/business relationships you had.

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Yeah, it's not going to affect me much. I already have top quality non-government health care. It's irrelevant to my standard of living.

I encourage you to find out more about Obamacare. Are you in a union?

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,435]

>Myself, and others, would go form our own company, and not provide our services to
>those employers.

And then Microsoft (the company you quit) would make sure that your new company was unable to purchase any Windows product, putting you at a competitive disadvantage in the IT arena. Other companies would out-compete you, and your failure would be a lesson to other employees who tried to quit Microsoft. Microsoft's wise business decision would result in profits for their shareholders since their labor costs would go down.

[Fast 0]

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I encourage you to find out more about Obamacare. Are you in a union?

No, I'm not and I know enough about it to know that given my current employment circumstances it's irrelevant to me. I have 0 out of pocket medical costs basically no matter what and I'm not in the military. It pays to work for people who care about their employees, which most companies do not.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[StreetScooby 5]

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It pays to work for people who care about their employees,

The smartest companies take care of their employees, absolutely.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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And then Microsoft (the company you quit) would make sure that your new company was unable to purchase any Windows product,

Fortunately, my field relies more on Unix than Microsoft. Your point is a good one, IMO. Competitive markets aren't always a pleasant place to be.

We are all engines of karma

[Bolas 5]

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In an informed society which chooses to act together, sure. Billvon has mentioned a few more examples of this concept not being true. I linked one. Your premise breaks down when you scale up to society.

I have to disagree with you. In an informed society, people walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them. That's the self stabilizing aspect you may be missing here.

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If minimum wage went away, it wouldn't take long for businesses to move the general pay scale a lot lower. At first you would have a choice, but in the long run, things would adjust in favor of the business owner. Most businesses would go for the short run gains, then cut and run if things failed.

Those employees can always choose to walk away. It may take a lot of work to do so (i.e., bettering themselves so they don't need to work at minimum wage jobs), but the choice is still their choice.

Quote

The purpose of government should be to provide a stable national defense, basic infrastructure and intervene when something that I choose to do makes problems for someone else and that's it.

Agreed.

Quote

Fair labor standards falls into basic infrastructure.

In general, I agree with this, but it can be abused. Are you familiar with New York's "Scaffold Law"?
http://www.scaffoldlaw.org/

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I do think that the government goes way too far in many things, but to fix that problem a whole lot is going to have to change.

Yes, people who are working to provide for their own families must vote out those politicians who take from them to give to those who don't work.

You hear people talking about their "rights". A right deals with how your allowed to conduct yourself. As soon as it starts costing other people's money, it's a privilege. That privilege comes with constraints, i.e., you need to work. Granted, that statement can use refinement in some finer points, but it's a reasonable starting point for further discussion, IMO.

You missed my point about an informed society. i.e. We don't live in one, people constantly act without the knowledge of what they are doing, if it's a good idea or bad. Many larger business dealings (like buying a house, car, etc) are so complex people can't wrap their heads around what is going on.

You also seem not able to grasp the fact that, given no fair standards, jobs that pay appropriate wages will disappear. Without a minimum wage and with the level of unemployment we consistently have, wages will drive down in all lines of work, including educated "Bettered" jobs. Because employees will compete for them. Yeah I know, free market, but the problem is, the way the system is set up now, it will substantially destroy any hope for a reasonable life for most people, including you. (Unless of course your in the millionaires club already).

The issue is not wages, but credit. Normally if wages go down, and a businesses costs go down, they can and have to lower prices so those now making less can still buy their products. Credit negates that.

At this point, we could eliminate or double minimum wage and as long as there was still free flow of credit, it would not change things.

We're no longer an informed society because we don't have to be. Consequences of bad decisions are negated by government and then complaints about the spiraling costs leads to more government control.

When regulations violations are settled for a tiny percentage of the profits made by violating, more regulations are not the answer.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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We're no longer an informed society because we don't have to be. Consequences of bad decisions are negated by government and then complaints about the spiraling costs leads to more government control.

When regulations violations are settled for a tiny percentage of the profits made by violating, more regulations are not the answer.

+1

We are all engines of karma

[Fast 0]

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The issue is not wages, but credit. Normally if wages go down, and a businesses costs go down, they can and have to lower prices so those now making less can still buy their products. Credit negates that.

At this point, we could eliminate or double minimum wage and as long as there was still free flow of credit, it would not change things.

We're no longer an informed society because we don't have to be. Consequences of bad decisions are negated by government and then complaints about the spiraling costs leads to more government control.

When regulations violations are settled for a tiny percentage of the profits made by violating, more regulations are not the answer.

That doesn't really make sense to me. If tomorrow, McDonalds, Walmart, Target and UPS said - screw this, we're only paying $4 an hour for our non-managment employees, 3.2 million people aren't just gonna go on as if nothing changed. They would be screwed. It's not like they could all pack up and go find somewhere else to work.

$4 an hour is $8320 a year gross @ 40 hours for 52 weeks. Consider for a minute trying to live on that much money.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Bolas 5]

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The issue is not wages, but credit. Normally if wages go down, and a businesses costs go down, they can and have to lower prices so those now making less can still buy their products. Credit negates that.

At this point, we could eliminate or double minimum wage and as long as there was still free flow of credit, it would not change things.

We're no longer an informed society because we don't have to be. Consequences of bad decisions are negated by government and then complaints about the spiraling costs leads to more government control.

When regulations violations are settled for a tiny percentage of the profits made by violating, more regulations are not the answer.

That doesn't really make sense to me. If tomorrow, McDonalds, Walmart, Target and UPS said - screw this, we're only paying $4 an hour for our non-managment employees, 3.2 million people aren't just gonna go on as if nothing changed. They would be screwed. It's not like they could all pack up and go find somewhere else to work.

$4 an hour is $8320 a year gross @ 40 hours for 52 weeks. Consider for a minute trying to live on that much money.

What you fail to realize is they're already screwed...

We all are until individuals and governments learn to use credit responsibly.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jcd11235 0]

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In an perfectly informed society, people always walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them.

I fixed your statement to make it accurate.

In an imperfectly informed society, such as the one in which we live, people sometimes walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them, and sometimes they don't. Businesses have proven time and again that, given the opportunity to engage in a transaction that is beneficial only to them, they will do so. Sometimes, by the time the counter-parties become aware that the transaction is harmful to them, it's too late.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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In an perfectly informed society, people always walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them.

I fixed your statement to make it accurate.

In an imperfectly informed society, such as the one in which we live, people sometimes walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them, and sometimes they don't. Businesses have proven time and again that, given the opportunity to engage in a transaction that is beneficial only to them, they will do so. Sometimes, by the time the counter-parties become aware that the transaction is harmful to them, it's too late.

proof of this - Apple is the largest company in the world, and one of the most profitable.

[StreetScooby 5]

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In an imperfectly informed society, such as the one in which we live, people sometimes walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them, and sometimes they don't. Businesses have proven time and again that, given the opportunity to engage in a transaction that is beneficial only to them, they will do so. Sometimes, by the time the counter-parties become aware that the transaction is harmful to them, it's too late.

Agreed. Orange County's bankruptcy due to derivative transactions is a prime example of this.

We are all engines of karma

[jcd11235 0]

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In an perfectly informed society, people always walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them.

I fixed your statement to make it accurate.

In an imperfectly informed society, such as the one in which we live, people sometimes walk away from transactions that are not of benefit to them, and sometimes they don't. Businesses have proven time and again that, given the opportunity to engage in a transaction that is beneficial only to them, they will do so. Sometimes, by the time the counter-parties become aware that the transaction is harmful to them, it's too late.

proof of this - Apple is the largest company in the world, and one of the most profitable.

To be fair, I've saved enough time to cover the cost of my computer a few times over by not running Windows. I didn't pay anymore for the hardware than I would have paid from an equally reputable manufacturer, such as Lenovo, so just using Linux wouldn't have provided any more benefit.

That said, use what you're comfortable with.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!