Pennsylvania Admits There’s No In-Person Voter Fraud

[muff528 3]

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> I think the issue has more to do with eligibility and the need to mask the number of
> dead folks, dogs, illegal aliens, phantom voters, goldfish, voters who cast multiple
> votes, etc.

Fair enough. Show your data. How many goldfish and dogs voted in the last presidential election, and how did you determine this?

How the hell would I know? Nobody checked IDs. But I'd be willing to bet that "none" is the answer for my precinct. They check IDs there.

He asked how many voted in the election, not at the polls. That check isn't going to cover absentee.

They probably would have had to vote in "person". I doubt that either could get a stamp to stay stuck to the envelope.

[billvon 2,406]

>How the hell would I know?

So (to use your own words) you pulled the claim out of your ass? What comes out of your ass is, in general, a poor basis for a new law.

[muff528 3]

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>How the hell would I know?

So (to use your own words) you pulled the claim out of your ass? What comes out of your ass is, in general, a poor basis for a new law.

Well, I haven't made any claims ...only disputed someone else's claims.

I'm not arguing for a new law. Just enforce the ones we have. My only position is that requiring a photo ID to verify someone's identity at the poll does not constitute "disenfranchisement" although I'll concede that it might rise to the level of "inconvenience". I do realize that it might be a problem for someone to have to deal with that inconvenience once every two years.

[sundevil777 94]

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Mass shootings are not a problem. They happen with alarming regularity, but any new laws attempting to deal with the issue are a hysterical overreaction to a nonexistent problem. Any resulting inconvenience to gun owners is completely unconstitutional.

That is a weird one , just pull that one out of your ass?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 94]

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I guess for the same reason there's no concern over the crime of toe theft.

From which orifice did you pull this?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 94]

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> Then why did you say "ID was never requested?"

because they never requested it.

Intentional deception. It is reasonable to conclude that you wanted others to think that what you had experienced should apply to others - that ID should not be required when the typical person goes in to apply. You knew very well that is not the case.

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I really only posted to point out that your original statements about needing an ID every month to get a Social Security check was incorrect. Just for the record, a social security card is not a form of ID.

I never said you'd need an ID every month.

The fed gov't considers a SS card to be a form of ID, used to comply with the laws for employers and other situations.

Those against ID laws say the small number of voter fraud that have been found by some particular study means that none exists, nothing to see here - keep moving along folks. I think that if some study was able to find a small number, that there is likely a lot more. Voting fraud is easy to do and hard to catch.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kallend 1,635]

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> Making fake IDs is also illegal.

Criminals don't obey the law.

>These arguments really are getting ridiculous.

And are word-for-word the same arguments used against gun laws.

IDs are required to buy guns. An illegal gun purchase/transfer is just that ...illegal and should be prosecuted..

Ummm - NO. In 33 states you can buy a gun privately with no ID needed, even at a gun show from a private seller. And the gun lobby opposes every attempt to change this.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[muff528 3]

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> Making fake IDs is also illegal.

Criminals don't obey the law.

>These arguments really are getting ridiculous.

And are word-for-word the same arguments used against gun laws.

IDs are required to buy guns. An illegal gun purchase/transfer is just that ...illegal and should be prosecuted..

Ummm - NO. In 33 states you can buy a gun privately with no ID needed, even at a gun show from a private seller. And the gun lobby opposes every attempt to change this.

You are right in that I shouldn't have said
"IDs are required" but it is implied. To comply with ATF requirements the seller must verify the buyer's State of residence. If the buyer resides out-of-state the transfer must be brokered by a dealer in the buyer's State. It doesn't specifically say to check their ID but if the private seller wants to stay out of trouble they'd better verify somehow. Either way, the seller needs to know who is buying the firearm. Yes, the seller can sell to someone from his State without an ID but if he doesn't know the buyer he might be breaking federal law.

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

[sundevil777 94]

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without evidence that there is significant in-person voter fraud occurring,

There is a lot of evidence of absentee fraud, such as the mayoral election in Miami that was invalidated by a court because of the more than 5000 fraudulent absentee votes.

So, can we agree that something should be done to prevent absentee fraud. Perhaps the voter ID laws in some states do help with the absentee problem, they might have made some (or at least should) revision to the process. I don't know what that change to prevent fraud might be, but we should agree that it is a big problem. The Florida dept of elections in an official report said it is the "tool of choice for those inclined to commit voter fraud.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[sundevil777 94]

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Since at best people can point to tens of cases of voter fraud in a state of millions

What about Al Franken's election? Over 1000 felons voted in that election - against the law.

What about 2012 report by the S. Carolina dept of motor vehicles report that found 953 dead people had voted. They also reported that 4965 people had voted in S. Carolina after their S. Carolina driver's license had been cancelled due to their getting an ID in another state.

Voter fraud, no problem here folks, keep moving along, nothing to see here...

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[muff528 3]

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Since at best people can point to tens of cases of voter fraud in a state of millions

What about Al Franken's election? Over 1000 felons voted in that election - against the law.

What about 2012 report by the S. Carolina dept of motor vehicles report that found 953 dead people had voted. They also reported that 4965 people had voted in S. Carolina after their S. Carolina driver's license had been cancelled due to their getting an ID in another state.

Voter fraud, no problem here folks, keep moving along, nothing to see here...

I don't suppose that SC DMV report mentioned anything about dogs and goldfish voting along with the dead folks and the folks who might have voted in multiple states? It would sure help my argument a little.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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without evidence that there is significant in-person voter fraud occurring,

There is a lot of evidence of absentee fraud, such as the mayoral election in Miami that was invalidated by a court because of the more than 5000 fraudulent absentee votes.

I don't think that case had anything to do with in-person voter fraud.

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So, can we agree that something should be done to prevent absentee fraud. Perhaps the voter ID laws in some states do help with the absentee problem, they might have made some (or at least should) revision to the process. I don't know what that change to prevent fraud might be, but we should agree that it is a big problem. The Florida dept of elections in an official report said it is the "tool of choice for those inclined to commit voter fraud.

I agree that election fraud has been a problem, but that's not what this discussion is about.

Encumbering voters who show up in-person at the polls to cast their votes doesn't address election fraud - it is a method to perpetrate voter suppression and disenfranchisement.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Since at best people can point to tens of cases of voter fraud in a state of millions

What about 2012 report by the S. Carolina dept of motor vehicles report that found 953 dead people had voted.

That is false. It was a hoax.

The claim was that 953 dead people voted. The election commission investigated 207 of the ballots.
No evidence of voter fraud emerged.

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Of its review of the 207 contested votes cast in 2010, the commission found:

• 106 votes were clerical errors by poll workers – mistakes like marking John Doe Sr. instead of John Doe Jr.

• 56 votes were “bad data matching” – meaning the state Department of Motor Vehicles, which raised concerns about zombie voters, was wrong in assuming the voters were dead.

• 32 votes were “voter participation errors,” meaning someone was credited as voting in an election when they did not, most likely because of a stray mark on the voter rolls that was electronically scanned to record a voter’s participation.

• Three ballots were cast absentee by voters who died before Election Day.

The Election Commission said it had “insufficient information” to explain the 10 contested votes because:

• In seven cases, the voters’ signatures on poll records could not be matched to “another voter.”

• In two cases, the poll list is missing “making it impossible to match the signature with another person.”

• In one case, the voter’s signature appeared to match a voter in another precinct “but could not be verified.”

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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They also reported that 4965 people had voted in S. Carolina after their S. Carolina driver's license had been cancelled due to their getting an ID in another state.

I believe this is a TeaParty allegation/factoid. Show us the final report.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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What about Al Franken's election? Over 1000 felons voted in that election - against the law.

This is another Fox News factoid which, as far as I can tell, is false.

HERE is a discussion of that issue you should read.

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EX-felons are the individuals being cited in these studies, individuals who are no longer disenfranchised and who can now vote legally. TP, and Fox News, and a certain right-wing blogging friend of ours, uses FELONS and EX-FELONS interchangeably from studies, when they are NOT in fact interchangeable. There are no studies which I could find which document how felons, who are not voting legally, vote. The assumption, which is not supported by any of these studies is that individuals will vote illegally the way these re-enfranchised people do, because they used to be felons. There is no proof of that, and the evidence is that there are so few felons voting illegally that they couldn't do a study if they wanted to do one - too few people!


That makes a big difference in how they spin these studies that have the pols and pundits orgasming all over the political sphere. They are in fact, either intentionally twisting the truth into a lie, to their benefit; or, unintentionally through carelessness, stupidity, and laziness, ignorantly misrepresenting the content of these studies. Shame on them!

[muff528 3]

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.....

That is false. It was a hoax.

The claim was that 953 dead people voted. The election commission investigated 207 of the ballots.
No evidence of voter fraud emerged.

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Of its review of the 207 contested votes cast in 2010, the commission found:

• 106 votes were clerical errors by poll workers – mistakes like marking John Doe Sr. instead of John Doe Jr.

• 56 votes were “bad data matching” – meaning the state Department of Motor Vehicles, which raised concerns about zombie voters, was wrong in assuming the voters were dead.

• 32 votes were “voter participation errors,” meaning someone was credited as voting in an election when they did not, most likely because of a stray mark on the voter rolls that was electronically scanned to record a voter’s participation.

• Three ballots were cast absentee by voters who died before Election Day.

The Election Commission said it had “insufficient information” to explain the 10 contested votes because:

• In seven cases, the voters’ signatures on poll records could not be matched to “another voter.”

• In two cases, the poll list is missing “making it impossible to match the signature with another person.”

• In one case, the voter’s signature appeared to match a voter in another precinct “but could not be verified.”

You completely miss the point. The integrity of 953 votes was brought into question. (Some of) the ballots were looked at and a determination was made for each questionable ballot. That's all that needs to happen. Voter fraud might be found in some cases and might not in others. I would have hoped that the other 746 questionable ballots would have been inspected. They probably should have verified the "cancelled license" cases too.

[billvon 2,406]

>You completely miss the point. The integrity of 953 votes was brought into question.

That's like saying that Michael Moore showed that the gun laws in the US need to be changed. He didn't prove anything, he just "brought them into question."

So far most of the voter fraud I've heard of has been perpetrated by republicans trying to prove how bad the system is. Solution? Prosecute them for voter fraud. Problem solved.

[muff528 3]

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>You completely miss the point. The integrity of 953 votes was brought into question.

That's like saying that Michael Moore showed that the gun laws in the US need to be changed. He didn't prove anything, he just "brought them into question."

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck? Your multiple attempts to deflect the argument to establish some lame equivalence to the gun debate is irrelevant and a waste of bandwidth.

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So far most of the voter fraud I've heard of has been perpetrated by republicans trying to prove how bad the system is. Solution? Prosecute them for voter fraud. Problem solved.

Cite.

Question - How were the 953 questionable ballots discovered? I don't know ...I'm asking.

[muff528 3]

After some thought I've decided that you are correct. I now agree with you (and Michael Moore) that the "voter ID" debate is equivalent to the "gun debate" (with respect to the notion that an ID should be required to purchase a firearm). I realize that this requirement does not disenfranchise the firearms buyer any more or any less than a voter is disenfranchised by a requirement to show an ID at the poll. Congrats. You have influenced my position on this point. (I'm still not buying the "nasty weather in Boston" argument, though).