SkyDekker 1,123 #126 May 17, 2012 Quote500M in libraries would provide a much greater value to the community. Really, what is the financial return? Or does it actually take away from local businesses since the rental of books take away from the purchasing of books? Library may actually have a negative financial impact on the community. Quotehigh school does a terrible job teaching finance or business. Correct, it does a better job at reading and comprehension. QuoteSo let me repeat the lesson for you - collecting $1M per year in revenue is not a benefit of a 500M spend. It is a benefit. But on a purely financial basis it would not provide a positive ROI. Then again, I have argued a couple of times, that would not be the sole driver in these types of decisions. Which brings us back to reading and comprehension. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #127 May 17, 2012 Quote QuoteSo let me repeat the lesson for you - collecting $1M per year in revenue is not a benefit of a 500M spend. It is a benefit. But on a purely financial basis it would not provide a positive ROI. Then again, I have argued a couple of times, that would not be the sole driver in these types of decisions. Which brings us back to reading and comprehension. Yes. Indeed. One would do better spending that money on lottery tickets. The other less tangible benefits are so much less significant that you would need to surrender entirely. Instead you pretend they somehow add up, but without the effort to actually demonstrate how. This is government spending in its finest form. Great if you're an NFL fan or an NFL team owner. Lousy if you're a taxpayer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #128 May 17, 2012 Right after you provide a link to these studies you keep referencing. Right after you demonstrate how a $500 million investment in libraries would be better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #129 May 18, 2012 you first- I'm not giving away money to an NFL team owner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #130 May 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou really like to spin everything don't you. If the state has events (Like high school football, baseball and soccer) they should be paying for that. Many things that the state would sponser would be held there. the team is binging in millions of dollars in tax revenue that will help the state. the states have the right to do things the fed should never get involved in, that is how this country was formed. The state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. The old stadium is perfectly adequate for every single one of those events. but once the team leaves they loose tax revenue, jobs, and money for stadium upkeep now making it a large cost to the state The Vikings had not been paying any rent or upkeep on the old stadium for a number of years (mostly because they threatened to leave once the lease was up)."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #131 May 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteNot sure what your point is. You asked: QuoteI'm still waiting for a single case that shows a city losing a major league team suffered for it My responding question gave you a hint to the answer. When a city loses a major league team, and the venue goes dark, they certainly lose in property taxes. Then you follow with a scenario regarding building a brand new stadium, where non existed before. Which means you are moving the goal posts. maybe you should figure out which scenario you want to discuss first? I've not seen any evidence that the collection of taxes is suspended just because a stadium is not in use. Can you point to something that indicates the entities responsible for collecting taxes waive said taxes for the property owner if the team leaves? This is a rather trivial detail though, since eventual abandonment and reuse for other purposes would occur; and taxes would be collected once again. Not sure why people think pro sports is some sort of magical bullet that bolsters an area's economy; it is proven otherwise. But again, it isn't an issue of economic stimulus - it's more that some people somehow feel second class if their city doesn't have a top notch team of millionaire athletes to coddle. The desire for pro sports is emotional, not economical - which is what allows the owners and players to continue bilking taxpayers. Hit the people who want to go at the gate with the true cost of putting on this absurdly expensive form of entertainment and it would morph nearly instantaneously back into the game and entertainment value it ought to be." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #132 May 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteCan we stop calling these investments? Unless if successful, money is directly paid back with interest, they aren't investments. Why? Return on investment can be non-monetary. When I invest in my child's education, I do not expect to get that money paid back with interest by my child. When a municipality invests in their community, they similarily do not look at the return as solely a financial matter. So what are the non-monetary returns from subsidizing pro sports? Some sort of pride? How is subsidizing billionaire owners and millionaire players a source of pride? Nothing else to be more proud of than that? Pathetic." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #133 May 21, 2012 QuoteSo, a $1 billion dollar infrastructure investment in the local community is a bad thing? The stadium is already publicly owned. Letting it sit vacant will reduce income in property taxes and reduce employment and reduce income from stadium usage. You can't look at this is new money for new business. This is an investment to maintain current employment and revenue over the long term. Plus it allows for a large local investment which will generate employment. People living in towns w/out pro sports teams still spend all their discretionary income, they just spend it on something other than pro sports. The money circulates just as well, generates jobs just as well, creates taxable income just as well, etc. The people who think it is really important to have pro sports should be willing to pay the cost at the gate. Player salaries and owner profits being what they are, fans of course are not willing to pay the real cost of putting on the game; so they couch it in emotional arguements about pride and loyalty; as well as distorted statistics and outright lies about what will happen if the team leaves - things which have NEVER been evidenced to have happened." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #134 May 21, 2012 QuoteSo is air traffic control, the poorest don't fly. So is building roads, the poorest don't have cars and certainly don't own transportation companies. So are farm subsidies. So are subsidies that stimulate business and provide employment. The armed forces is probably the largets form of welfare for the rich. It isn't only publicly funded, but it uses the blood of the poorest to protect the richest. And makes people incredibly wealthy along the way. Welfare for the rich is a poor excuse. Every investment made by public money helps a rich person along the way. Poor comparison. You are comparing basic infrastructure and security needs to an entetainment business. Subsidizing pro sports is more like subsidizing Hollywood movies, thrill rides in theme parks, morning radio talk shows, and so on. Also, the fact that the rich and influential have hijacked government as an arm of their corporations is hardly a good reason to allow it to continue, or make it worse." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #135 May 21, 2012 Quote Both of these projects were shopped to private investors and companies, including AEG. No one bit, because the return just isn't there. But the egos on city council love having their names on the side of the buildings, no matter what it costs the taxpayers. Government officials are horrendous at doing the dollars and cents math on projects. Just my 2 cents worth... Yep; this issue is all about satisfying emotional needs - not economic ones. And the leagues count on government agencies to be wowed by bullshit stats because they want so badly to believe them as support for their emotional need." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #136 May 21, 2012 Quotethe state and city have things they will use this facility for that are government related. Name them. And they need to be things for which a facility of this magnitude is needed. High school sports championships do not count - the facility is radical overkill for that. No convention can count because we have a convention center already that can accomodate practically any need. I've never seen 50K or 60K people at Supercross, Monster Trucks, or wrestling around here - so those can't count. What exactly are all those other events that merit the local governments, against the will of the people and behind closed doors, putting up half a billion in taxpayer money? Oh, I forgot - it's because they are so much smarter than all of the private investors who wouldn't come near such a boondoggle." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #137 May 21, 2012 QuoteThe state would be seriously hurt if the team moved away, they are investing in the future of the state. Show us one example of a city or state financially damaged by a pro team leaving town. It simply does not happen. Everybody continues spending their money, just on other stuff. The epitome of what this is all about is easily recognized by a line from an influential public funding proponent back when they were trying to keep some team or another from leaving several years back. The person's biggest fear was that without their favorite pro team the Twin Cities would just be "a cold version of Omaha." It's all about ego, misplaced pride, and ignorance. They really count on taxpayer, fan, and politician ignorance." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #138 May 21, 2012 Quote Quote HOWEVER, cities, and other jurisdictions, SHOULD work to lure and keep businesses in their areas, using all legal means available, such as land, tax breaks, etc. .... Do cities need sports teams? Sure. But at what costs and benefit? Government officials are horrendous at doing the dollars and cents math on projects. Just my 2 cents worth... Agree with all. Only would add that any deals made have to pay for themselves immediately, not deferred. Seen too many times a company move in for tax breaks and around the time they expire threaten to leave unless given an extension or in some cases additional items. To be fair, pro sports teams are not the only ones capable of that. Remember the number Northworst Airlines did before finally getting run into the ground. Bilked the state for a lot of cash, then did the equivalent of "Sorry, changed our plans." Also were counting on nobody noticing the multimillion dollar parachutes all the executives got on the way out." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #139 May 21, 2012 Quote>now we see where it all breaks down Yep. And the definition of "intelligent" is very different between, say, an environmentalist and a sports fan. That's what happens when everybody's self-created definition is given validity - and intelligence is one of those for which most people's definition is designed around their personal agenda. What they are actually defining is their emotional need - not intelligence. What's happened with this issue is everybody is trying to create rational arguements to support their emotional need. Some people (don't know the exact percentage - but would make for a good research topic) simply must have a person, or group, or some other entity thru which to live vicariously. In our modern society that roll seems to be falling really heavily on pro athletes and teams." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
