JohnRich 4 #26 October 4, 2011 Quotewe modelers laugh at this geek wantin' to take a F-4 or F-86 foamie and pack it with "Explosives!!" Kinda like watchin some geek take a Para-foil and think he's gonna' win a pond swoopin' comp. !!!! Good fun ya'll!! It doesn't have to be fast - just deliver the payload. So, can one of those RC aircraft carry 5 lbs. of C-4 explosive as he planned? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 October 4, 2011 QuoteHow about toilet seats? They produce injuries and carry contagion, and are physiologically unnecessary. Besides, CHILDREN can fall through them. confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #28 October 4, 2011 Quote Quote we modelers laugh at this geek wantin' to take a F-4 or F-86 foamie and pack it with "Explosives!!" Kinda like watchin some geek take a Para-foil and think he's gonna' win a pond swoopin' comp. !!!! Good fun ya'll!! It doesn't have to be fast - just deliver the payload. So, can one of those RC aircraft carry 5 lbs. of C-4 explosive as he planned? Hi John, Not one of those foamie F-4's or F-86's that they used for examples. There are "Big Birds" 8' to 12' wingspan models e.g. a "Nosen" "Big Stick" about a 10' span take off on Phil Krafts' original Ugly Stick. He could use one of those but even then with the 5 extra pounds the C.G. would have to be right on and the structure would need extra beef to keep from folding because of the "G's". There's lots of ARF's from Extra 300's to Super Cubs, P-51's to XR-71's in the 80" to 180"range, engines to 200cc's. The fun part is this radio-"CONTROL!!" thing! Even a 10' span model a hundred yards away (One football field lengh) is gonna look like a postage stamp....is it going left, right, away from or twords me??? Think fast dumb thumbs! Highly unlikely that he's gonna find some kinda GPS controlled auto pilot(add in the weight and C.G. of the black boxes!) to hook into his radio to get any range outa' his project!! Think about this, lets' say this turkey had all his "Stuff" in a van ready to go, he'd have about 30 seconds from when he opened the doors to get the plane out, fire it up, get the radios working, take off, fly to and engage his target, at second 31 he'd be in handcuffs. End of story. We're talkin Washington and I doubt he'll take off from somewhere outside of the "Beltway!!" Maybe some of the jokers who cook up the "Devices" for the "James Bond" movies have some ideas, but ya' gotta' remember all the things that James pulls off in those movies as Tom Bosley would say,"That's Hollywood!!" Bill "skybill" Deli AMA-87838 PS, BTW John, get a copy of the current, OCT 2011 edition of "Model Aviation" from the AMA and check it out. Lotsa' great "Big Planes," gas engines to 200cc's all kinds of "Stuff" our hot head can choose from, but it's not the hobby/sport model aircraft that are the real issue. On page 12 "AMA in action" read Drones vs. Model Airplanes by Rich Hanson. Unmanned Aircraft Systems, (UAS's) are here!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 October 4, 2011 Thanks for that info. Here's more:Analysis: Model planes as weapons of terror Excerpts: "Ferdaus allegedly planned to fill three remote controlled aircraft - which he referred to as "small drone airplanes" - with explosives, launch them from the east Potomac park, and guide them by GPS into their targets. "One remote-controlled helicopter that retails online for $10,000 in the U.S. is described as capable of lifting a payload of at least 20 lbs. (9 kg.) It can be accessorized with a built-in camera providing real-time video transmitted back to the controller, a feature which would be of obvious help to terrorists seeking to home in on a target – and record a propaganda video of the attack at the same time. "In 2006, a Maryland teacher, Ali Asad Chandia, was convicted of trying to acquire an electronic automatic pilot system for a model aircraft on behalf of the Pakistani terror group Lashkar e Tayiba. The system contains a stability and control computer that can be programmed to fly a plane with a 10-12 foot wingspan using GPS co-ordinates and can be programmed to turn a video camera on and off when the plane reaches certain locations. "The force of a few pounds of C4 in a confined and crowded space such as a sports stadium or outdoor concert venue could produce mass casualties."Full story: CNN Attached: Map of East Potomac Park and the Pentagon. I know the image quality is poor, but that's what you get with a 100k size limit here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #30 October 4, 2011 Hi John, Good followup. 5 will get ya' 10 from now on that "Park" will be more like an "Armed Camp" with 24/7 survailance!! 30 seconds from doors open, hell now I wouldn't even give him 10! Yeah the technology is there, in more ways than one! Remember terrorists are using good old cell phones as triggering devices for their road side bombs etc!! Meanwhile back at the ranch, got a "Stick E" 48" span electric powered Ugly Stick that I'm workin on. Should be fun to fly at the DZ when the celing is too low to jump. Chuck "Skymonkey 1" Blue and Tim Tennant and a few others got the Model airplane bug out at Raeford and when we aren't jumpin' we can still rip up the sky!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #31 October 4, 2011 QuoteQuotewe modelers laugh at this geek wantin' to take a F-4 or F-86 foamie and pack it with "Explosives!!" Kinda like watchin some geek take a Para-foil and think he's gonna' win a pond swoopin' comp. !!!! Good fun ya'll!! It doesn't have to be fast - just deliver the payload. So, can one of those RC aircraft carry 5 lbs. of C-4 explosive as he planned? Wow, that's more than a truck! Oh wait, no it isn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #32 October 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow about toilet seats? They produce injuries and carry contagion, and are physiologically unnecessary. Besides, CHILDREN can fall through them. confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities Yes. It's clear that lots of things need to be banned. So we need to prioritize according to just haw dangerous they have proven to be. Using that criterion, coat hangers, Ford Pintos and toilet seats would come right after guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #33 October 4, 2011 Quote Quote confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities Yes.. thank you, that's the answer I was hoping for ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #34 October 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities Yes.. thank you, that's the answer I was hoping for Indeed, think of the CHILDREN.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #35 October 4, 2011 Quote "One remote-controlled helicopter that retails online for $10,000 in the U.S. is described as capable of lifting a payload of at least 20 lbs. (9 kg.). Wow - just think how much damage a truckload of explosive could do. Does it cost $10k to rent a Ryder truck?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #36 October 4, 2011 >Wow - just think how much damage a truckload of explosive could do. Yep. Now check to see if a good fence will stop a truck. Now check to see if a good fence will stop a helicopter. This argument is once again getting stupid. ROV aircraft are used as weapons. So are trucks. Both have to be considered when designing any defense against attack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #37 October 4, 2011 Quote>Wow - just think how much damage a truckload of explosive could do. Yep. Now check to see if a good fence will stop a truck. Now check to see if a good fence will stop a helicopter. This argument is once again getting stupid. ROV aircraft are used as weapons. So are trucks. Both have to be considered when designing any defense against attack. Yes, it is silly. Far cheaper and easier to rent an R22 with an autopilot than buy a $10k model to carry 20lbs. It took the US and Israeli military years and $millions to design effective RPV aircraft. Has it occurred to JR why it is that the bad guys use trucks, RPGs and guns so often?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #38 October 4, 2011 >Far cheaper and easier to rent an R22 with an autopilot And easier still to rent a C152 and outfit it with an autopilot and say 500 lbs of explosives. Which is why surveillance of airports has increased. >It took the US and Israeli military years and $millions to design >effective RPV aircraft. Yep. And today you can get aircraft with similar levels of sophistication for a few thousand. The videos from them are all over Youtube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #39 October 5, 2011 Quote>Far cheaper and easier to rent an R22 with an autopilot And easier still to rent a C152 and outfit it with an autopilot and say 500 lbs of explosives. Which is why surveillance of airports has increased. >It took the US and Israeli military years and $millions to design >effective RPV aircraft. Yep. And today you can get aircraft with similar levels of sophistication for a few thousand. The videos from them are all over Youtube. Hi Billy, Ya' know, some nutter could take a pomegranate, pump it up with pyrotechnics, put it in a plausable place and proceed to play havoc with people, places and things!! He or she or whatever don't need no model airplane to deliver the device!! Funny thing about this thread. The concept of what the nutter wanted to do is "Science Reality!" Yesterday it was "Science Fiction" and a few decades of years before that it was "SCIENCE FANTASY!!!!!!!!!!!" Oh Brother!! When I was 5 years old, in 1950, Pumpy Jones , the kid next door who's family had the only TV set on the block was quite a popular guy. We'd watch "Sky King" "Roy Rogers" "The Cisco Kid," "Boston Blackie," "Howdy Doody," and "SUPERMAN!!!!!!" on his TV!! On one episode of Superman, some nutter called Perry White at the Daily Planet newspaper and said he was going to blowup some building, they got on it, staked it out for any lurkers but the building got blown up any way. He caled back, threatened several more venues and inspite of everyone's efforts, he blew them up anyway. Finally, our Buddy Superman who was really Clark Kent, a mild manered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper, (Not the WaPo) was flying in the sky and "Intercepted" this small model airplane packed with explosives capeable of blowing up tall buildings, bridges, locomotives and etc ad naseum!! That was 1950!!! The state of R/C airplane technology was "Nothing" like it is today but the "Science Fantasy" was real GOOD!!! Now we have some nutter that wants to do what was fantasized in a Superman episode of 1950 and as you can read in the first posts on this thread, "The posters want to'BAN ALL MODEL AVIATION'!!!!!" or something close!! OH BROTHER!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 October 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities Yes.. thank you, that's the answer I was hoping for Indeed, think of the CHILDREN. Yes, they must be stopped ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #41 October 5, 2011 Quote>Far cheaper and easier to rent an R22 with an autopilot And easier still to rent a C152 and outfit it with an autopilot and say 500 lbs of explosives. Which is why surveillance of airports has increased. That's why an R22 would be handy - no airport needed, just land it next to the barn where the fertilizer is stored.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #42 October 5, 2011 Quote Ya' know, some nutter could take a pomegranate, pump it up with pyrotechnics, As I expect you know, "Grenade" is French for pomegranate.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #43 October 5, 2011 >no airport needed, just land it next to the barn where the fertilizer is stored. Well, right - but you can land a C152 almost anywhere as well; a field, a beach, a deserted road etc. The one additional "barrier" that any registered aircraft has is that the person needs to either purchase and register the vehicle (at which point there's a record of who it is) or has to show sufficient documentation/expertise to be able to rent an aircraft. This is a barrier that isn't present in ROV's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #44 October 5, 2011 Quote>no airport needed, just land it next to the barn where the fertilizer is stored. Well, right - but you can land a C152 almost anywhere as well; a field, a beach, a deserted road etc. The one additional "barrier" that any registered aircraft has is that the person needs to either purchase and register the vehicle (at which point there's a record of who it is) or has to show sufficient documentation/expertise to be able to rent an aircraft. This is a barrier that isn't present in ROV's. And this is also a barrier that is far far more an appearance than reality. Most small aircraft are stored in hangars that have minimal locks, with the ignition key in the plane or close by. There are fences and other securtiy in place around some airports, but the "Barefoot Bandit" demonstrated how easy it is to steal an airplane."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #45 October 5, 2011 Quote Quote Ya' know, some nutter could take a pomegranate, pump it up with pyrotechnics, As I expect you know, "Grenade" is French for pomegranate. Hi John, SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #46 October 5, 2011 >Most small aircraft are stored in hangars that have minimal locks, with >the ignition key in the plane or close by. Agreed; it is indeed a minimal barrier. However it is a stronger barrier than currently exists for ROV's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #47 October 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteHow about toilet seats? They produce injuries and carry contagion, and are physiologically unnecessary. Besides, CHILDREN can fall through them. confusion.....are you anti-toilet seat? due to the dangers outlined? or pro-toilet seat? due to the ability to screen out dangerous children and their potential terrorist activities Yes. It's clear that lots of things need to be banned. So we need to prioritize according to just haw dangerous they have proven to be. Using that criterion, coat hangers, Ford Pintos and toilet seats would come right after guns. Using your criteria fast food would be first (with deaths from obesity an order of magnitude worse than automobiles), then cars, then guns (firearm murders are about 1/3 traffic fatalities). I'm suggesting a much more rational balance between utility and danger to the public. While terrorists have mixed Ryder trucks with ANFO they're also useful for self-service moves. Toy planes are dangerous weapons for terrorists that lack practical use and belong at the head of the to-be-banned line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #48 October 5, 2011 Quote>Most small aircraft are stored in hangars that have minimal locks, with >the ignition key in the plane or close by. Agreed; it is indeed a minimal barrier. However it is a stronger barrier than currently exists for ROV's. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. The ROVs are fairly expensive toys. Not millions like the government drones, but ones big enough to do real damage are going to run low 5 figures. A pair of cutters for the fence and a big crowbar or sledgehammer for the door are a lot cheaper."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #49 October 5, 2011 Quote>Most small aircraft are stored in hangars that have minimal locks, with >the ignition key in the plane or close by. Agreed; it is indeed a minimal barrier. However it is a stronger barrier than currently exists for ROV's. I believe my Mooney would be far easier to steal than my R/C helicopters, and more people are capable of operating it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #50 October 5, 2011 >I believe my Mooney would be far easier to steal than my R/C helicopters Agreed. But an R/C helicopter is far easier to order with a stolen credit card. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
