jaybird18c 4 #151 September 30, 2011 Quote>If it's a baby, then we have a problem because it's a human being just like you or me. Right. But you've already said that sometimes it is OK to kill that human being based on the wellbeing of the mother. In fact you've defended your wife when she has done that. So clearly it's NOT just like another human being; abortion is not "just like the murdering of anyone." (Which is fortunate for your wife!) Ok. You're right. There are situations when it is unavoidable. And, we "choose" to save the life of the mother over the baby...which is usually the only option because the baby isn't viable yet...the mother is the only one you can save. Just like in most cases, the only way to save the baby is to save the mother. The mother is the lifeline. That aside, should it be legal for a woman to have an abortion for reasons of convenience mentioned before and not for a "medical necessity?" Understanding that what's inside of her is in fact a baby and a human being (just a smaller version) than you? If so, why would you be ok with the murder of that baby for those reasons? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #152 September 30, 2011 Quote>However, in my wife's situation, the mother would have died. Right. But in another post you replied "Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation?" So I will ask you the same question. What did the child do to deserve death? Nothing. I said that. However, there was no alternative in my wife's case. I'm not understanding the correlation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #153 September 30, 2011 If, upon conception, the embryo has all the rights of a human, then shouldn't it have the right to bear arms? How about this: Upon conception, every embryo should be issued a tiny handgun, to be surgically implanted in the uterus. Then the embryo could defend itself if anyone tried to abort it. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #154 September 30, 2011 >And, we "choose" to save the life of the mother over the baby...which is >usually the only option because the baby isn't viable yet...the mother is the >only one you can save. That is often the case. Sometimes, though, it is not the case. In a case that was very personal to me, a friend of mine discovered she was pregnant with twins. One had a serious congenital deformity. They were considering a selective reduction to help ensure the healthy twin had the best chance of survival. However, it wasn't life or death - both the mother and the healthy twin would likely survive. So it certainly wasn't "saving anyone's life." If your wife chose to do the selective reduction to maximize the chances of the other child, should she have been arrested for killing a baby? Should there be a law that says she cannot do that? It's easy to say "well, abortion is OK if it will save someone's life, but not OK in any other case" - but the real world is far more complex than that. SHOULD abortion be OK in cases that I consider convenience? No. Should my decision be the one that determines how a doctor treats her patient? Absolutely not. Neither should yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #155 September 30, 2011 >However, there was no alternative in my wife's case. I'm not understanding >the correlation. If the statement "Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation?" is a valid reason to not abort a child, then it is just as valid in the cases your wife was involved with. However, you have stated that there are some exceptions where abortion IS ok. I agree. Thus while the baby did nothing to deserve death, sometimes that's not a sufficient reason to continue the pregnancy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #156 September 30, 2011 QuoteIf, upon conception, the embryo has all the rights of a human, then shouldn't it have the right to bear arms? How about this: Upon conception, every embryo should be issued a tiny handgun, to be surgically implanted in the uterus. Then the embryo could defend itself if anyone tried to abort it. I see you've got my sense of humor. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #157 September 30, 2011 Quote>However, there was no alternative in my wife's case. I'm not understanding >the correlation. If the statement "Tragic but what did the baby do to deserve death in that situation?" is a valid reason to not abort a child, then it is just as valid in the cases your wife was involved with. However, you have stated that there are some exceptions where abortion IS ok. I agree. Thus while the baby did nothing to deserve death, sometimes that's not a sufficient reason to continue the pregnancy. I think the right description is that sometimes, there is no choice. However, those situation compared to the vast majority of elective abortions (reasons for) are very very few and far between. Do you think it should be "all or nothing" in this regard or are there reasons (many reasons?) why it should not be allowed/legal? I know it's legal. I'm just discussing whether or not it should be except in certain, very limited, circumstances? If so, why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #158 September 30, 2011 >Do you think it should be "all or nothing" in this regard or are there >reasons (many reasons?) why it should not be allowed/legal? Not sure what you mean by "all or nothing." I think that it's not black and white if that's what you mean. It should always be legal, but it should never be used for convenience. Abortion is a necessary medical tool that should be used only when absolutely needed to protect the well being of the mother. And the best people to decide when that is the case is a woman and her doctor. Does that mean that sometimes it will be used for convenience? Yes, unfortunately. Any right we have - the right to own guns, the right to free speech, the right to worship as we see fit - can be abused. But those abuses do not mean that people do not deserve those rights. You have posted in a great many other threads about how you want to keep your rights, and you do not want the government to take them away. In general I agree with you. I also feel that the government should not take rights away from women - and the decision as to what to do with her body is one of the most important rights a woman has. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #159 September 30, 2011 Quote>Do you think it should be "all or nothing" in this regard or are there >reasons (many reasons?) why it should not be allowed/legal? Not sure what you mean by "all or nothing." I think that it's not black and white if that's what you mean. It should always be legal, but it should never be used for convenience. Abortion is a necessary medical tool that should be used only when absolutely needed to protect the well being of the mother. And the best people to decide when that is the case is a woman and her doctor. Does that mean that sometimes it will be used for convenience? Yes, unfortunately. Any right we have - the right to own guns, the right to free speech, the right to worship as we see fit - can be abused. But those abuses do not mean that people do not deserve those rights. You have posted in a great many other threads about how you want to keep your rights, and you do not want the government to take them away. In general I agree with you. I also feel that the government should not take rights away from women - and the decision as to what to do with her body is one of the most important rights a woman has. Sometimes??? QuoteReasons for abortions In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[26] Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following as their primary reasons for choosing an abortion:[27] 25.5% Want to postpone childbearing 21.3% Cannot afford a baby 14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy 12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy 10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job 7.9% Want no (more) children 3.3% Risk to fetal health 2.8% Risk to maternal health 2.1% Other Abortion in the United States So the true medical reasons account for less than 10%. Given, as you agree, that this is a human baby we're talking about, you still want the mother to have the "right" to murder the child under all those other circumstances. That's what I mean by "all or nothing" decision. The government does have the duty to protect its people. That goes for all Americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #160 September 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf, upon conception, the embryo has all the rights of a human, then shouldn't it have the right to bear arms? How about this: Upon conception, every embryo should be issued a tiny handgun, to be surgically implanted in the uterus. Then the embryo could defend itself if anyone tried to abort it. I see you've got my sense of humor. :) One other advantage: Only the gun-ophobe liberal fetuses would get aborted. We could select for an entire generation of pistol-packin' Republican babies right out of the womb! YEEEE-HAAAW!!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #161 September 30, 2011 QuoteWe could select for an entire generation of pistol-packin' Republican babies right out of the womb! YEEEE-HAAAW!!! How does a newborn baby shoot the women trying to abort them? They just don't lead em as much! Get some!! KaKaKakaKaKaKaKa!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #162 September 30, 2011 >Given, as you agree, that this is a human baby we're talking about, you still want the >mother to have the "right" to murder the child under all those other circumstances. Yes. Just as your wife wants the right to murder other people's innocent babies for reasons SHE thinks are valid. She thinks they are medically necessary; I am sure in many cases Bill Frist would disagree. You think that not being able to feed a baby is insufficient reason to abort it; other people disagree. If you (or your wife) want the freedom to do what you think is best, you have to give other people the same right that you yourself demand. That's how rights work - you can only really keep the rights that you are willing to defend for others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #163 October 1, 2011 QuoteYes. Just as your wife wants the right to murder other people's innocent babies for reasons SHE thinks are valid. She thinks they are medically necessary; I am sure in many cases Bill Frist would disagree. You think that not being able to feed a baby is insufficient reason to abort it; other people disagree. If you (or your wife) want the freedom to do what you think is best, you have to give other people the same right that you yourself demand. That's how rights work - you can only really keep the rights that you are willing to defend for others. You think my wife "wants" the "right" to do that?? It's what she "has to do." Hence, there is no other option except to let the mother die. That is not even the same thing as throwing away a life like it was a piece of garbage. The frivolous reasons listed above accounting for the vast majority of these mass murders is not a "right" or even a "privilege" that should be protected. It should be called what it is with the appropriate stigma attached. Simply changing what you call it and dehumanizing the life involved to make it easier to kill is no different than what was done to the Jews in WWII. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #164 October 1, 2011 >Simply changing what you call it and dehumanizing the life involved to make it easier >to kill is no different than what was done to the Jews in WWII. And we've switched to Hitler already. >You think my wife "wants" the "right" to do that?? It's what she "has to do." Yep. Lots of people think that. Some of them are even right. Who gets to decide who is right? For the sake of your wife I am glad it's her and her patient and not a Washington politician. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #165 October 1, 2011 Quote Yep. Lots of people think that. Some of them are even right. Who gets to decide who is right? For the sake of your wife I am glad it's her and her patient and not a Washington politician. Does the government have the responsibility to protect you from being murdered? How would you regard what a woman, and her abortionist, does when they terminate a pregnancy because she feels like she's not ready to be a mother or she's a drug addict whore who considers her baby a nuisance and obstacle to her next fix. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,411 #166 October 1, 2011 >Does the government have the responsibility to protect you from being murdered? No, that's your responsibility - but the government does have a role in enforcing its own laws. >How would you regard what a woman, and her abortionist, does when they terminate a >pregnancy because she feels like she's not ready to be a mother or she's a drug addict >whore who considers her baby a nuisance and obstacle to her next fix. As a very bad decision. Now - do you trust your wife or the government more to decide which babies should live and which should die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #167 October 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhatever goes on inside a woman's body is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Nor is it the government's business. Yes or no Doc... Would you support an abortion up to the point the baby pops out? Simple question and I am asking for a Yes or No answer. None of my business. None of YOUR business. None of the government's business.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #168 October 1, 2011 I think we might need to get some more Auralex in here!Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #169 October 1, 2011 QuoteI think we might need to get some more Auralex in here! It's none of YOUR business either.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #170 October 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteI think we might need to get some more Auralex in here! It's none of YOUR business either. I'm making it my business now...we have that power in this country. You only care about yourself John. You fucked it all up. You and your cause would've been better off just shutting the fuck up....it was already legal. How foolish...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebabin 0 #171 October 2, 2011 You seem really stressed these days, CoReece. Maybe you need to visit with RonD and tell him all about it..."Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings." "Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #172 October 2, 2011 Not stressed at all man... I'm gonna live in the wilderness for awhile...live off the land, kill some grub...go down to Clearwater and find some peace...get agitated, then invite some friends to Coreece Island (Corey's Island) and have a blast as always...come back to reality and vote... I think it's about time to make abortion illegal...at leaat for those who don't feel like taking responsibilty for their actions... It's comming baby... This country will not put up with genocide. Darfur will be a concurrent goal...Period. It may take a minute, but I always win....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 277 #173 October 2, 2011 Quote So if a woman who was one week away from giving birth wanted the fetus terminated.... You think that is is fine for her to do it? Okay, now we have mixed terminology. Is it aborting a fetus, or terminating a pregnancy? If she were one week away from giving birth and wanted her pregnancy terminated (or really, having the fetus removed, e.g. aborting the fetus)? Sure, I have absolutely no problem with that. Women choose all the time when to deliver, for whatever reason. If the fetus/baby survives the transition, and the mother does not want it? We have laws in place to help out with that, too. She doesn't have to take it home.See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #174 October 2, 2011 The bottom line is that we are about to make it quite clear that murder is murder, punishible by either death or life in prison... People need to stop fucking around....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 277 #175 October 2, 2011 Quote The bottom line is ... that murder is murder, punishible by ... death Quote People need to stop fucking around.... Well, that's one way to solve the problem! Very punny. See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
