More Conservative Christian Values

[billvon 2,470]

>I'd hardly call asking for ones money back, pork.

Of course you wouldn't. To you, it's an excellent use of government money for a purpose you approve of. And those veterans? Well, those brave heroes deserve all the benefits we can afford to give them. And those wars? Heck, that's defense! That's why we pay taxes, to support a strong military and protect our interests.

Well, guess what? Everyone else - democrats, republicans, tea partyers, the christian right - thinks exactly the same way. They all want their pork. Which is how we got into this mess, and why we will never get out.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>I'd hardly call asking for ones money back, pork.

Of course you wouldn't. To you, it's an excellent use of government money for a purpose you approve of. And those veterans? Well, those brave heroes deserve all the benefits we can afford to give them. And those wars? Heck, that's defense! That's why we pay taxes, to support a strong military and protect our interests.

Well, guess what? Everyone else - democrats, republicans, tea partyers, the christian right - thinks exactly the same way. They all want their pork. Which is how we got into this mess, and why we will never get out.

As previously stated, you show an incredible ability to misunderstand. Being forced to pay into a government program which promised the money would be returned and then being told "opps, sorry we spent it" is quite different than your examples. Unless you are now officially on record as being for eliminating SS payments.

I think this is just another shining example of why we need a smaller government. One that people rely on less to provide for them. That's the best way out of this mess for the long term.

[billvon 2,470]

>Being forced to pay into a government program which promised the money would be
>returned and then being told "opps, sorry we spent it" is quite different than your
>examples.

The sense of entitlement exemplified in the above sentence is the reason we're not going to get out of this mess. "I'm ENTITLED to my government payments!"

>Unless you are now officially on record as being for eliminating SS payments.

Personally I think we have to cut _everything_, even people's sacred cows (NASA, veteran's benefits, social security, military, welfare etc.) (And yes, I said cut, not eliminate.)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Being forced to pay into a government program which promised the money would be
>returned and then being told "opps, sorry we spent it" is quite different than your
>examples.

The sense of entitlement exemplified in the above sentence is the reason we're not going to get out of this mess. "I'm ENTITLED to my government payments!"

>Unless you are now officially on record as being for eliminating SS payments.

Personally I think we have to cut _everything_, even people's sacred cows (NASA, veteran's benefits, social security, military, welfare etc.) (And yes, I said cut, not eliminate.)

I agree, but I think you don't understand what an entitlement is.

***
en·ti·tle
   [en-tahyt-l] Show IPA

verb (used with object), -tled, -tling.
1.
to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim: His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.***


To me an entitlement is a gift that someone comes to expect. I'd hardly call being forced to surrender something monetarily and then asking for it back, the same as say free medical care because one didn't self-insure.

Can we take your statement as one that disagrees with Obamacare or are you still beieving the lie that it will pay for itself in savings?

[billvon 2,470]

>To me an entitlement is a gift that someone comes to expect.

OK. Just be sure to explain that you are using your own definition when discussing it or you'll confuse people. (Also keep in mind that you are disputing the very definition you just posted.)

>Can we take your statement as one that disagrees with Obamacare or are you still
>beieving the lie that it will pay for itself in savings?

I don't know yet. I think it is a good attempt at solving one of the bigger problems in our healthcare system (uninsured medical costs.) Time will tell whether it saves money, is a wash or costs money. However, the former two, in my book, would be wins.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>To me an entitlement is a gift that someone comes to expect.

OK. Just be sure to explain that you are using your own definition when discussing it or you'll confuse people. (Also keep in mind that you are disputing the very definition you just posted.)

>Can we take your statement as one that disagrees with Obamacare or are you still
>beieving the lie that it will pay for itself in savings?

I don't know yet. I think it is a good attempt at solving one of the bigger problems in our healthcare system (uninsured medical costs.) Time will tell whether it saves money, is a wash or costs money. However, the former two, in my book, would be wins.

I'm not contradicting anything I already stated. You are the one who thinks paying into a system and then expecting to get back what wa promised is an entitlement. When a Life Insurance Policy pays off after someone dies, do you consider that an entitlement, too?

[kallend 1,678]

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>To me an entitlement is a gift that someone comes to expect.

OK. Just be sure to explain that you are using your own definition when discussing it or you'll confuse people. (Also keep in mind that you are disputing the very definition you just posted.)

>Can we take your statement as one that disagrees with Obamacare or are you still
>beieving the lie that it will pay for itself in savings?

I don't know yet. I think it is a good attempt at solving one of the bigger problems in our healthcare system (uninsured medical costs.) Time will tell whether it saves money, is a wash or costs money. However, the former two, in my book, would be wins.

I'm not contradicting anything I already stated. You are the one who thinks paying into a system and then expecting to get back what wa promised is an entitlement. When a Life Insurance Policy pays off after someone dies, do you consider that an entitlement, too?

I (and probably you too) pay a Social Security TAX, not a PREMIUM. The law clearly states that the Congress can renege on payouts any time it wants.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,470]

>I'm not contradicting anything I already stated.

OK. So you agree that veteran's benefits and Social Security are entitlements.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>I'm not contradicting anything I already stated.

OK. So you agree that veteran's benefits and Social Security are entitlements.

You really are confused aren't you?

[billvon 2,470]

>You really are confused aren't you?

Not at all. You just posted a dictionary definition that defined them as entitlements. Do you now dispute the definition you posted?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>You really are confused aren't you?

Not at all. You just posted a dictionary definition that defined them as entitlements. Do you now dispute the definition you posted?

Sorry, don't see the problem. I think you are confused.

[Channman 2]

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Let's make it a little more immediate.

You're at the DZ. Someone hooks it in, and is lying there screaming. The only local hospital is government-supported and not charity, and you KNOW that the person doesn't have insurance.

Do you call an ambulance, or do you pile him into a car and go for the closest charity hospital?

Wendy P.

Well, I think we should call the ambulance. But if the Hospital turns them away because he/she has no health insurance and tells the ambulance crew to transport them to the charity hospital 20 miles away, does he/she still not receive care.

It's a damn good thing it did'nt take place in Mexico, because you better be able to pay, or otherwise your in some serious shit.

[Channman 2]

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>Being forced to pay into a government program which promised the money would be
>returned and then being told "opps, sorry we spent it" is quite different than your
>examples.

The sense of entitlement exemplified in the above sentence is the reason we're not going to get out of this mess. "I'm ENTITLED to my government payments!"

>Unless you are now officially on record as being for eliminating SS payments.

Personally I think we have to cut _everything_, even people's sacred cows (NASA, veteran's benefits, social security, military, welfare etc.) (And yes, I said cut, not eliminate.)

I agree, but I think you don't understand what an entitlement is.

***
en·ti·tle
   [en-tahyt-l] Show IPA

verb (used with object), -tled, -tling.
1.
to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim: His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.***


To me an entitlement is a gift that someone comes to expect. I'd hardly call being forced to surrender something monetarily and then asking for it back, the same as say free medical care because one didn't self-insure.

Can we take your statement as one that disagrees with Obamacare or are you still beieving the lie that it will pay for itself in savings?

I've had to put Skydiving on Hold a bit, after I complete my Open Heart surgery for a Mitrol Valve Repair. Blue Cross and Blue Shield are giving me some grief that I was without coverage/lapsed coverage for 3 months prior to being covered under my new employer's plan.

While working this out, and not sure how this little chapter in my life will end, I've made arrangements with Methodist Hospital, to pay in cash if required at a reduced rate. I guess if you have insurance the cost is far greater than with cash. Yep, It will cost me a great deal upwards of 80K out of my JSC Federal Credit Union savings account, not what I planned on spending the money on but I guess the RV-8 Airplane can wait.

[jclalor 12]

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Well, I think we should call the ambulance. But if the Hospital turns them away because he/she has no health insurance and tells the ambulance crew to transport them to the charity hospital 20 miles away, does he/she still not receive care

.

For starters, In a tea bagger world, why would the ambulance transport if there is no insurance coverage or apparent ability to pay?. If a person is transported to a hospital with 0 LOC, how do they know if he is insured or does not have the means t o pay?

And what the fuck is a charity hospital? I have never heard of this in California.

I think this is just one example that separates us from the third world.

[billvon 2,470]

>I think you are confused.

Nope, I agree with the definition. Let's see if I can get to the root of your confusion:

Do you think that veterans are entitled to veteran's benefits?

Do you think that people on social security are entitled to their benefits?

[RonD1120 58]

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Well, according to the article, the hypothetical man took responsibility for himself and made choice that could or did cost him his life.

And I will repeat the same question to you; Who would you expect to unhook the person, who had no insurance, with an otherwise good prognosis, from a vent?

I say your philosophy on this is not the same that
Jesus would have.

First, to answer your question, I think the attending physician takes responsibility and issues the order to remove life support. An ER doctor friend of mine back in the 70's said that he issued such an order.

I have some personal experience with this hypothetical conundrum. From 1971 until 1993 I chose to go without health insurance. I understood my risks and accepted them.

In the comparison to what would Jesus do, you have to remember that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation from spiritual death. It is not freedom from physical death.

One of the first things a physician learns is that not all can be saved. In today's medical model, focused on comfort rather than cure coupled with Obamacare, lifesaving is only of concern until triage.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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[jclalor 12]

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First, to answer your question, I think the attending physician takes responsibility and issues the order to remove life support. An ER doctor friend of mine back in the 70's said that he issued such an order.

Issues the orders or does it it himself? I can tell you that know one I know would do it. Disconnecting a terminal Pt is difficult enough, let alone some with a good prognosis but no insurance.

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I have some personal experience with this hypothetical conundrum. From 1971 until 1993 I chose to go without health insurance. I understood my risks and accepted them.

I don't know what was happening in the seventies, but I doubt people were refused ER care. I know for a fact that if you were in a situation like that in the nineties, care would have never been refused. In all honesty, you may have been gambling, but with not nearly the same stakes as the tea baggers propose.

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In the comparison to what would Jesus do, you have to remember that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation from spiritual death. It is not freedom from physical death.

When ever I think Christianity may have the smallest redeeming quality, i'm proven wrong. So the next time I hear a request for a prayer to heel the sick, I should remind them that the Jesus does not care about the physical death of a person. I always thought a Christian tried his best to live a Christ like life, Why would a Christian care about the physical possessions of this life when an eternity with God awaits those are truly Christ like? No part of living a Christ like life would lend it self to disconnecting someone's child, parent, or sibling from a ventilator.

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One of the first things a physician learns is that not all can be saved. In today's medical model, focused on comfort rather than cure coupled with Obamacare, lifesaving is only of concern until triage.

[freethefly 6]

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In the comparison to what would Jesus do, you have to remember that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation from spiritual death. It is not freedom from physical death.

You should really attempt to actually read the book that you claim is truth.

It so seems that Jesus was about healing the sick. It says so in the bible.

Now I do suspect that you will re-interpret the scripture to reflect your own view. Have at it.

“But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;”
(Matthew 12:15, KJV esword)

“Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.”
(Luke 4:40, KJV esword)

“And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all. ”
(Luke 6:19, KJV esword)

“And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.”
(Matthew 4:24, KJV esword)

“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
(John 10:10, KJV esword)

I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.” (Exodus 15:26)

“And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.” (Deuteronomy 7:15)

“So you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. No one shall suffer miscarriage or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.” (Exodus 23:25)

“He sent His word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.” (Psalm 107:20)

“Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases …” (Psalm 103:2)

“For I will restore health to you and heal you of your wounds,” says the Lord. (Jeremiah 30:17)

“O Lord my God, I cried out to You, and You have healed me.” (Psalm 30:2)

He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds … Great is our Lord, and mighty in power …” (Psalm 147:3)

“And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:19)

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Channman 2]

Now you've done it...blurred the clear line of separation of church and DZ.com. You’re in pearl of being banned if you keep this up.

[billvon 2,470]

>In the 'Ron Paul' hypothetical the 30-year old man is responsible for his own bills. If
>that means selling his house, car, stock portfolio, cashing out his 401k, etc. that is
>what he has to do. Once he has done as much as he can he needs to work out an
>arrangement with the hospital to settle his remaining bills. Now, maybe he negotiates it
>down in advance and makes them an offer. That's up to him.

Since that's what we have now, that's not much of a hypothetical.

[RonD1120 58]

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Now I do suspect that you will re-interpret the scripture to reflect your own view. Have at it.

No need to re-interpret. It is rightly dividing the Word of God, 2 Timothy 2:15

Do you research Scripture to that extent for problems in your own life?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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First, to answer your question, I think the attending physician takes responsibility and issues the order to remove life support. An ER doctor friend of mine back in the 70's said that he issued such an order.

Issues the orders or does it it himself? I can tell you that know one I know would do it. Disconnecting a terminal Pt is difficult enough, let alone some with a good prognosis but no insurance.

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I have some personal experience with this hypothetical conundrum. From 1971 until 1993 I chose to go without health insurance. I understood my risks and accepted them.

I don't know what was happening in the seventies, but I doubt people were refused ER care. I know for a fact that if you were in a situation like that in the nineties, care would have never been refused. In all honesty, you may have been gambling, but with not nearly the same stakes as the tea baggers propose.

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In the comparison to what would Jesus do, you have to remember that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is salvation from spiritual death. It is not freedom from physical death.

When ever I think Christianity may have the smallest redeeming quality, i'm proven wrong. So the next time I hear a request for a prayer to heel the sick, I should remind them that the Jesus does not care about the physical death of a person. I always thought a Christian tried his best to live a Christ like life, Why would a Christian care about the physical possessions of this life when an eternity with God awaits those are truly Christ like? No part of living a Christ like life would lend it self to disconnecting someone's child, parent, or sibling from a ventilator.

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One of the first things a physician learns is that not all can be saved. In today's medical model, focused on comfort rather than cure coupled with Obamacare, lifesaving is only of concern until triage.

nonsense.

[DanG 1]

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It is my understanding that Obamacare would not pay for extended Tx or life support. It would not be economically feasible. Managed care would indicate termination.

If you believe the conservative boogeyman version, then perhaps. If you believe what's actually written in the law, then you're completely wrong.

- Dan G

[jclalor 12]

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My point exactly, the hypothetical situation presented to Ron Paul is not a reality. ER care would cover the uninsured. The Paul question concerned an uninsured Pt with a negative prognosis for recovery but not a terminal Dx.

It is my understanding that Obamacare would not pay for extended Tx or life support. It would not be economically feasible. Managed care would indicate termination.

Honestly, since you believe that Christianity has no redeeming nature, I would suggest that you not enter into the private prayer matters of the Pt or the family.

When I pray for a Pt, I pray "in God's will" and usually focus on "strength and comfort guided by the Holy Spirit" for the Pt and the family. Bear in mind that for a Christian, death is the ultimate healing.

Again, the Bible is not a tech manual. You must have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to understand and apply Scripture adequately. Application is not consistent in every situation. It depends on the faith of the believer.

Maybe I do not understand triage. I thought it meant to provide care to the most viable Pt first.

[RonD1120 58]

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I really doubt that today, any ER Doc would DC stabilizing treatment on any Pt based on ability to pay. By law an ER must not discharge a Pt until they are stable. Perhaps you remember a few years back in LA, where some hospitals were "dumping" non stable Pt's on the streets. They were in huge trouble.

Your a smart man, you need to stop believing everything Sarah Palin tells you. This whole "death panel" has zero basis in fact. The whole thing started over reimbursement for Doctors to discuss advance directives. Hundreds of billions of dollars a year are spent keeping people alive during the last 3 months of their life who have no advance directive. People should be made aware that they have choices. Please provide any evidence that "Obama care"would dictate that "Managed care would indicate termination" That's nonsense.

While my contact with families is limited due to the shift I work (nocs) I would never espouse my beliefs to a family. You may be surprised to hear that on the rare occasion (whenever asked), I will help some of the kids with their questions about God and the bible by finding and showing them certain passages. I have even arranged for a few masses, baptism's and last rites to be said at bedside in the middle of the night. On one occasion, I even had my co-workers all convinced we were having an exorcism performed on a Pt that night. They were not amused, I thought it was funny.

I'm still waiting to hear someone just diagnosed, with a curable disease, pray for the ultimate healing.

Triage is always based on the viability of recovery during an extreme time of limited resources, and never based on the victims ability to pay,

It seems our discussion parameters keep expanding to take in another what if. My position is based on an uninsured Pt with a negative prognosis but not a terminal Dx. I maintain he took a risk by not purchasing insurance that he could have afforded and he is ultimately responsible.

When my mother went into long term care she had a negative prognosis. Her Dx was vascular dementia and heart disease. I prayed that the Lord would take her home. It took over two years and the last couple of months I don't think she always recognized me and in the end I doubt if she knew her name. She developed dysphasia and could not communicate.

Her advance directive, recorded in 1982 or so, was for no life support only comfort measures and DNR. She understood that when the time comes, just go. It took much much longer than we expected but it was in God's timing.

The thing that confuses me so much is, we had/have a medical system that was/is working. Why do/did we need Obamacare?

BTW, I think the exorcism is funny. I love gallows humor. Had I been there, I would have backed you up.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.