Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

[Coreece 190]

What ever happened to the days when you just ran out of your house with a shotgun like a redneck, shouting "get off ma property you son's of bitches!" Then fired a warning shot into the air...

Life was so much simpler...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[rehmwa 2]

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no-no-no, VB said a dog is an animal, and as such cant be held responsible for it's actions.

as someone else pointed out and to what i agreed, if you ignore the gun in my hand you very probably have other interests than things of small value.

ii also said if you ignore THAT threat, you are fair game. and I have every right to have a little fun with you (the possible burglar that is).

and this is still different from waiting with your dogat the ready to maul a THIEF.

yeah, totally different

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[virgin-burner 1]

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What ever happened to the days when you just ran out of your house with a shotgun like a redneck, shouting "get off ma property you son's of bitches!" Then fired a warning shot into the air...

Life was so much simpler...

well, i would be totally ok with that.. and i think most burglars would trip over their feet while running the FUCK away.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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no-no-no, VB said a dog is an animal, and as such cant be held responsible for it's actions.

as someone else pointed out and to what i agreed, if you ignore the gun in my hand you very probably have other interests than things of small value.

ii also said if you ignore THAT threat, you are fair game. and I have every right to have a little fun with you (the possible burglar that is).

and this is still different from waiting with your dogat the ready to maul a THIEF.

yeah, totally different

the guys in this case just got out of the house and shot to kill. BTW, my dog isnt trained to maul as you put it. it's a natural instinct. a HUMAN is (should be) different; because otherwise, you are just an ANIMAL. and should be put on a leash, or behind bars, depending on how dangerous an animal you are..

yea, simple things, subtle differences, too much to take for the typical SC-poster..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

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dude, if you cant figure out what the difference is between a dog protecting it's territory and a HUMAN conciously killing someone, then you have more issues than i'm willing to deal with, that should be reserved for your clerk.

sure - you are perfectly happy to INDIRECTLY inflict damage but lack the balls to own up to doing it directly

a consistent position with your gun position would be to have the 'Beware of Dog' sign but no dog.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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yea, simple things, subtle differences, too much to take for the typical SC-poster..

a simple matter to say the same thing about your take on it - one understands your view, but are pointing out another take on it that you are unwilling to consider at all


forget the specific example from the OP - pretty much everyone agrees that the story, as it is reported anyway, indicates an undesirable vigilante theme that no one agrees with. we've been on to something else for some time now

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lefty 0]

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dude, if you cant figure out what the difference is between a dog protecting it's territory and a HUMAN conciously killing someone, then you have more issues than i'm willing to deal with, that should be reserved for your clerk.

That whoosing sound is the point going by your head. Again.

Last try. And for simplicity's sake, let's just assume that you are alone and your dog is alone and you each encounter an intruder. Follow the steps:

1) a. You want to protect your territory.
b. Your dog wants to protect its territory.

2) a. You've said that property by itself isn't worth attacking an intruder over.
b. Your dog doesn't know about the value of property *edit* when compared to an intruder's life.

3) a. You don't defend your territory because you've gauged the threat of the intruder to be confined to your property.
b. Your dog defends its territory because there is an intruder.

4) a. Intruder makes off with some cheap property. You figure no harm done.
b. Intruder and/or dog winds up injured or dead. Over cheap property.

5) a. You made a judgement call and face the consequences, which are light since only some cheap property was taken.
b. Your dog made its own version of a judgement call and YOU still face the consequences, which are severe because you let a human get mauled by a dog over some cheap property.

Any of that getting through?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[virgin-burner 1]

dude, to put it REAL simple:

a dog is a DOG

a human is a HUMAN


if there's no difference, i come over for a visit and shit on your carpet or your porch. would you find that acceptable from a PERSON!?

there's DIFFERENT standards applied to DOGS and PEOPLE.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

I like you, you're funny.

We're talking about your application of a tool.
The human chooses to use a gun or a dog.

take care, I have a meeting

I also don't find it acceptable if either you or your dog shits on my porch and if either of you do, you're the one that takes responsibility in my mind (YMMV, apparently) - your dog isn't allowed in my house. Dogs are outdoor pets - as they should be.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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Your dog doesn't know about the value of property.

Dog's property valuation:
Stereo: $0
TV: $0
Computer: $0
Squeaky duck: Priceless

- Dan G

[Lefty 0]

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Your dog doesn't know about the value of property.

Dog's property valuation:
Stereo: $0
TV: $0
Computer: $0
Squeaky duck: Priceless

Touché. Edited that line for clarity.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[virgin-burner 1]

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I like you, you're funny.

We're talking about your application of a tool.
The human chooses to use a gun or a dog.

take care, I have a meeting

I also don't find it acceptable if either you or your dog shits on my porch and if either of you do, you're the one that takes responsibility in my mind (YMMV, apparently) - your dog isn't allowed in my house. Dogs are outdoor pets - as they should be.

i were to understand your argument if i've sent my dog after a thief..

BTW, i pick up after my dog, the shit that is..

and to completely derail from the topic, like a human, a dog is a social creature. that means, if you dont sleep outside, your dog shouldnt. you are doing it a disservice..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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Your dog doesn't know about the value of property.

Dog's property valuation:
Stereo: $0
TV: $0
Computer: $0
Squeaky duck: Priceless

it's more than that; my dog thinks it's squeaky things are it's children. she's highly worried if you make them squeak, carries them away and licks them, checking out if you've done any harm to them.. oh, and you get the LOOK, too!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Coreece 190]

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a dog is a social creature. that means, if you dont sleep outside, your dog shouldnt.

Let it socilaize with the burglars...Outside.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[virgin-burner 1]

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a dog is a social creature. that means, if you dont sleep outside, your dog shouldnt.

Let it socilaize with the burglars...Outside.

only if they have steaks!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[winsor 191]

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dude, to put it REAL simple:

a dog is a DOG

a human is a HUMAN


if there's no difference, i come over for a visit and shit on your carpet or your porch. would you find that acceptable from a PERSON!?

there's DIFFERENT standards applied to DOGS and PEOPLE.

Indeed there are.

The dog that mauled/killed a person is euthanized.

The person who owned the dog that did the mauling/killing is put in prison, held responsible for the actions of the vicious animal.

Any questions?

[virgin-burner 1]

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dude, to put it REAL simple:

a dog is a DOG

a human is a HUMAN


if there's no difference, i come over for a visit and shit on your carpet or your porch. would you find that acceptable from a PERSON!?

there's DIFFERENT standards applied to DOGS and PEOPLE.

Indeed there are.

The dog that mauled/killed a person is euthanized.

The person who owned the dog that did the mauling/killing is put in prison, held responsible for the actions of the vicious animal.

Any questions?

not if you break into my house. the dog eats the burglar, gets away with it. if you kill the burglar, you pay a 300'000$ fine..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[StreetScooby 5]

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Dog's property valuation:
Stereo: $0
TV: $0
Computer: $0
Squeaky duck: Priceless

ROFLMAO... Thank you, I needed to laugh today.

We are all engines of karma

[popsjumper 2]

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supporting the rights to defend yourself and your property doesn't automatically mean one thinks vigilantism is right - that strawman is weak

Damn! Somebody that actually gets it!
WooooHoooo!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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If you're convicted of committing a crime I don't think you deserve any rights to claim a judgement against someone for you getting hurt or killed. I think that should play into things in these cases. You were doing something you know is wrong, there are risks associated with that, much like jumping from a plane. You should take what you get.

Exactly!

The crook-coddlers whine for the state laws that protect the crooks and whine when the crooks get pasted.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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GO Texas!

Shooting was in Colorado, not Texas.

He probably knows that, and was just saying that Texas laws on armed defense are superior to those in Colorado.

That's correct John. Texans have a lot more common sense than most of the rest of the U.S.

Well, in some ways anyway.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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no-no-no, VB said a dog is an animal, and as such cant be held responsible for it's actions.

You do realize that in some places it's YOU who will be held responsible for the dog's actions?

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ii also said if you ignore THAT threat, you are fair game. and the dog has every right to have a little fun with you (the possible burglar that is).

...and have its owner pay a hefty civil judgement against him.

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and this is still different from waiting with your gun at the ready to shoot a THIEF.

Oh, I dunno. If I'm going to pay a hefty fine or go to jail anyway, it may as well be ME that has the fun.


Dogs a great first line of defense. If the crook shoots, it'll be the dog that gets it first. Maybe the owner would have time to grab his weapon of choice by that time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[freethefly 6]

This seems to fit the argument and explain it well.
http://www.markmartellaw.com/DynamicContentPage.shtml?ss=fln-faq-question.xsl#owner

Generally speaking, an owner of property may not use deadly force to defend the property. Society values human life and bodily integrity much higher than property. Therefore, the life, health and safety of an individual, even an intruder, is considered to be more valuable than the china or stereo which that individual is trying to steal.

An owner is not prohibited, however, from invoking self-help methods in defending property from another. An owner of property is entitled to use reasonable force to prevent someone, or something, from entering onto her property or to remove something from her property. What, under normal circumstances, may constitute a battery, assault, or other intentional tort, will not be considered unlawful in situations where it is performed as a reasonable use of self-help in defense of property. However, the use of force calculated to do great bodily harm, or cause death, is not permitted.

One narrow limitation upon the use of deadly force is authorized. Where an intruder threatens personal safety, as well as a threat to property, or where the intruder is committing a forcible felony, deadly force may be appropriate. For example, if a robber enters a home and, while stealing items, attempts to rape the homeowner, the owner may be justified in shooting the robber. However, an owner who witnesses a neighborhood child stealing a bicycle from the owner's garage, without any threat of bodily harm, is not justified in shooting that child.

We have castle doctrine law in Missouri, but the law does not allow you to kill someone who is merely stealing property.

"Forcible felony", any felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual, including but not limited to murder, robbery, burglary, arson, kidnapping, assault, and any forcible sexual offense;

http://www.stltoday.com/news/article_038cdf5e-04f2-5a73-9e45-39f532ac1d4e.html
Ed Postawko, a top aide to St. Louis Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce, said Missouri law generally permits use of lethal force if someone invades a home or occupied vehicle. He spoke with the understanding that he was commenting generally and not about Kemp's death.

"Basically if someone is trying to get into your car, you don't have to wait for someone to flash a gun in your face," Postawko said.

He said the law is fashioned to permit people to kill to protect themselves or others against a significant threat.

"You cannot use deadly force to protect your property," Postawko said. "Property can be replaced. Lives cannot."

Some insight from Officer.com
http://forums.officer.com/archive/index.php/t-69442.html

There are a number of cases where defendants are provoking castle doctrine law. One is a case in Kansas City. In that case a man shot and killed a person for stealing an old go-cart from his backyard. Sure the guy was a thief, but does the punishment fit the crime? Another is a man who shot at a purse thief 5 times as the thief was running away (3 times as he ran across a parking lot and twice out on the street.)
Missouri conceal carry law does not permit a person to kill or even shoot at a person stealing outside your home if no personal threat is present. Do we really want people shooting at thieves out on the street where a stray bullet could potentially kill a child or any other person?

Personally, if I am awaken in the middle of the night by someone burglarizing my home, they might get shot. But even that depends on a number of things. I wouldn't want to kill a 13yo kid who is making a mistake. I would hope that I do the right thing, regardless of the person's age. I would hope that I have the frame of mind to announce that I have a gun pointing at his/her head. I would hope they do not make a move towards me provoking deadly force. I would rather they lay down while I call the police. If they refuse and decide to attack it's their fault when they get shot. If they jump out the window? I'll let them go. File a report and hope they are caught. If a person is in my yard stealing lawn furniture, a car, or even my Harley, I'm not about to kill someone for what can be replaced.

I wonder how many people, who are in favor of killing people for stealing, would applaud if it were their kid shot dead while stealing something like a stereo or bicycle. I would imagine that they would come to the defense of their child and contend that the punishment did not fit the crime.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[virgin-burner 1]

*thumps up*

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[blkhwk91b 0]

"According to the accomplice, Brian Corbin, they had smoked methamphetamine and were looking to steal anything to buy more drugs."

....because if you are hyped up on Meth and willing to steal anything, that absolutely rules out the chance of someone getting hurt. There is a formula out there somewhere to confirm this, Google it.......it's there...

"Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men..."

hey Hey HEY! BACK OFF! guys with knives work in the circus and throw them. They are highly trained and disciplined. This is no doubt the part of the award considered "loss of future earnings".


/sarcasm off

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts