Unions

[DougH 270]

A company like verizon is divided into different business lines.

If the wireline business is faltering why should it matter that the other side of the business is booming?

Personally I think the truth is likely in the middle. The wireline business is probably key to the sucess of the wireless business, but the wireline business is not nearly as profitable or necessary as it was in years past.

If the skills of the wireline business are so valuable they should all quit and go work for competitors, they would get hired up in a minute right?

Or maybe business changes and they haven't kept up with the times. They don't drive profits nearly as much as they used to, they aren't nearly as imported to the companies success.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[weekender 0]

I'm with you. the top and bottom lines on the wireline biz is down yr over yr. so that division should be cut accordingly

I dont get how the companies revenues matter, though. The purpose of the company is to make money for the owners/shareholders. it doesnt exist for the employees. Your pay has nothing to do with earnings or revenues. Employees are not entitled to the profits unless they are also the owner. Your payed whatever the owner wants to pay you. dont like it quit or start your own company and then you can make all the demands you want.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[dreamdancer 0]

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dks13827 3]

I worked for Armour Foods for years ( I.T. guy... not in the slaughter houses !! )


When our plants in Iowa, MN, KS etc kept demanding pay raises that couldnt be met ( and they already made good money ), the company said, we would have to close the plant if you union guys wont cut us some slack. The unions said.. close the plant then.... so they did !!!! This happened over and over again.

So no one in town had a decent job after that.

Those unions sure do care about folks, dont they !!!!!

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

...and drive companies overseas or out of business.

You're worth what an owner/manager is willing to pay you. Full stop, end of story. When your only demand regardless of situation is "more," you are not rational or reasonable.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[weekender 0]

Quote

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

everyone is paid what their worth. most people feel they are underpayed but the sad truth is if they were, they could demand more.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Quote

Where is your proof that the union was even involved?

I think you could use the word SCAB scratched into his car as a clue here.

I very much doubt that the IBEW condone what individual members or locals do. Much the same that the U.S. Army does not condone the crimes that individual members commit.

Statement from the IBEW and CWA in relation to the Verizon strike:
http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/5347868/ibew-cwa-our-unions-oppose-violence-in-any-form

It has always been my experience, when a member of the USWA, that criminal acts would not be tolerated as it went against what the union was trying to accomplish.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[freethefly 6]

Quote

it doesnt exist for the employees.

A company exist because of the employees.
The vast number of jobs, here in SW Missouri, are non-union. Average pay is $8.00 per hour. Most employees pay for their "benefits." Most of the jobs work 39 hour weeks, making them part time. This part of the state is 80% republican. An extremely high number of people, in this area, collect government benefits, due to low wage jobs. Not so in areas of the state where unions thrive and people earn a wage that allows them to stay off of the government dole. Those areas are overwhelmingly democrat and in larger cities, such as St. Louis.
Now, I do agree that some locals demand more than what a small company can afford. That needs to stop. They need to meet in the middle and shake hands as the company rises and falters. After all, it is management and employees that make a company.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[firemedic 7]

I don't often comment on subjects on DZ but I feel compelled to comment here. Unions.....I worked part time for a unionized sports equipment manufacturer when I was in college so I could skydive. A few months later they went on strike because the union failed to reach an agreement. A week later I went to get my paycheck and there was a huge picket line in front of the entrance. I went to the front to talk to the shop steward and was told I could not go in. I told her I needed my check. After some pleading It became apparent to me that if I tried to go in to get the pay I had earned that my ass was going to get beaten. I believe that this guy was shot by a disgruntled union worker but I seriously doubt the union put him up to it. Someone mentioned here to consider the possibility that it was staged to make unions look bad. I think the possibilities are:
99.999% chance it was a union guy acting alone and .001% chance it was staged.

[weekender 0]

Quote

Quote

it doesnt exist for the employees.

A company exist because of the employees.
The vast number of jobs, here in SW Missouri, are non-union. Average pay is $8.00 per hour. Most employees pay for their "benefits." Most of the jobs work 39 hour weeks, making them part time. This part of the state is 80% republican. An extremely high number of people, in this area, collect government benefits, due to low wage jobs. Not so in areas of the state where unions thrive and people earn a wage that allows them to stay off of the government dole. Those areas are overwhelmingly democrat and in larger cities, such as St. Louis.
Now, I do agree that some locals demand more than what a small company can afford. That needs to stop. They need to meet in the middle and shake hands as the company rises and falters. After all, it is management and employees that make a company.

the company exist because someone, the owner/investors, created it.

the rest of your comments i wont argue. Union people make more money than non union. usually for sure. not my point. reread my post and you will see that no where did i imply otherwise.

the company exist for the owners to profit. not to supply jobs. their profits are theirs and not the employees. should not be a factor in someones pay. start your own company and you can set your own pay based on profits.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[DougH 270]

Quote

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

Or when the economy changes and evolves you can go back to school and invest in yourself so you are aligned for jobs that pay what you expect.

The economy has changed big time, it is now an hourglass economy, get with the program or get passed by.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[airdvr 200]

Quote

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

So you think union wages will be going down in the future?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[skydiver604 0]

the company exist for the owners to profit. not to supply jobs. their profits are theirs and not the employees. should not be a factor in someones pay. start your own company and you can set your own pay based on profits.


100% agree.

Want to be successful at your job?? It's simple.

Show up for work on time. Attendance is measurable and a large majority of companies track it as part of measurable performance reviews.

Keep your work area tidy and organized.

Excellent customer service comes first and foremost. Most industries if you have customers you have a job.


Want to get noticed by your boss so when promotions and advancement opportunities come up and you want on the short list??, simple,,,make your boss look good to his / her bosses.

be creative in making suggestions to improve safety, quality, process, reducing waste and cutting costs. 99% of the time the employees running the processes and equipment have the best ideas to improve processes and save the company $$$.

Companies need their employees as much as the employees need jobs.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[freethefly 6]

Quote

the company exist because someone, the owner/investors, created it.

The idea of a company is created by one or more investors (owners, venture capitalists.) A company can only exist if it has employees. Remove the employee from the equation and the company remains only as an idea. People (employees) are needed to bring forth a concept into reality. Products do not materialize out of thin air.
Do you own a company? Fire all of your employees and do not replace them. I am 100% positive that your company will cease to exist.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[dks13827 3]

Too few people understand economics. It is like physics in so many ways, meaning, the laws of nature can't be changed no matter how hard folks try to do it. Things sell for what they are worth, hence some things are worthless. A canopy manufacturer can sell his product for what the market will bear, no matter what his cost to build was ( $200 or $800). If the costs become too high... out of business !!! Build some brand new parawings and you will see there are not many buyers of those. PhD's in Flagstaff, AZ make low wages ( unless they work at NAU ) but they make the choice to live there. Their choice.

[weekender 0]

Quote

Quote

the company exist because someone, the owner/investors, created it.

The idea of a company is created by one or more investors (owners, venture capitalists.) A company can only exist if it has employees. Remove the employee from the equation and the company remains only as an idea. People (employees) are needed to bring forth a concept into reality. Products do not materialize out of thin air.
Do you own a company? Fire all of your employees and do not replace them. I am 100% positive that your company will cease to exist.

ok, a company needs employees is a valid point, however, that is not what was originally stated. Nor do i believe was the intent. People do not like to think they are less important but they are. The company exist because of and for the owners. Not the employees. they are replacable at the owners will, not the other way around.

my point still stands. the company exist for the owners not to create jobs. Employee pay has nothing to do with owner profit.

to answer your question, no i do not own a business. my wife does, she pays her employees based on their value. not her profit.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[dreamdancer 0]

how should the chinese authorities treat unions? should they ruthlessly suppress them or embrace them? are unions democratic or anti-democratic?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[freethefly 6]

Quote

the company exist for the owners not to create jobs.

That makes no sense.

As a company grows, jobs are created. If a company falters, jobs are eliminated. It is in the best interest of a company to grow and create jobs. It is in the best interest of the employee to help a company grow in order to retain their jobs. It is in the best interest of the company to offer fair compensation to those who create the concepts of product to the who build the product that generates the companies profit. Every person needs to be compensated fairly for their effort.

I use to be employed with Hussmann Refrigeration. I earned $20.00 per hour straight time. Time and a half was $30.00 per hour. I worked a 12 hour day Monday to Friday. At times we worked on Saturday for eight hours. Monday through Friday I started my day at 3:00am and worked until 3:00pm. Saturday was 7-3:30. I was very happy. I made great money and greatly supported the local economy, as did everyone else.
Hussmann was extremely profitable in those days. A leader in the industry. We, the union employees, were extremely proud of the product we produced. I was thrilled to see nothing but Hussmann cases in a grocery store. Nothing but the best. In fact, we had a hand in how the product was produced. The union encouraged its members to find ways to cut cost on the floor. After all, members were also shareholders. What was good for the company was good for the union employee.
Then comes along Ingersoll Rand in 2000. The company was sold for 1.7B. No sooner than they bought Hussmann, pink slips were handed out. Near 75% of the employees at the Bridgeton plant were out of a job by 2002. I lost my job in 2002. Where did the jobs go? Mexico.
Over this last summer Ingersoll Rand sold 60% of the Hussmann to Clayton, Dubilier & Rice for $370m. Ingersoll has posted a loss in the company. Can the people on the factory floor be blamed for the loss? Or should blame lay on the shoulders of management? Maybe both? After all, you get what you pay for.

Before Ingersoll Rand came along, Hussmann and the USWA were in perfect harmony. Profits were at an all time high and there were plenty of room to go higher. Ingersoll Rand destroyed that with their anti-union tactics. They destroyed what was good.

To get a feel of how people feel about Ingersoll Rand:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/archive/index.php/t-156871.html
From the board:
absrbrtek
12-17-2007, 03:33 PM
I was in management in IR for 2 years after they bought out Hussmann. They gutted Hussmann like filleting a fish. IR will ruin whats left of Trane in the next 2 years once they try to force their policies and lean them out like they did to Hussmann. This is great news for independent contractors, IR has no idea about how to run a service business or treat a customer.

When I left they had about a 50% employee turnover rate and were boasting it would be 60% in the year comming up. I feel sorry for anyone in Tranes management or sales, you can probably KYA goodbye, IR will want their people in there running the show. JMHO

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[weekender 0]

the company exist for the owners not to create jobs

>That makes no sense.

I think you read it wrong. I am saying the company exist for the owners profit. It does not exist so he can create jobs for people. that is a benefit for others but not the companies purpose or why it was created. its only purpose is profit, not jobs.

does that make sense? I'm not asking if you agree. i'm asking if its worded in a way you understand. I might not have been clear in the one sentence you quoted.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Kennedy 0]

Well seeing as they are still a basically fascist state with one party control, they will do anything they damn well please, with an emphasis on making the rich and powerful more rich and powerful.

Unions are not democratic or undemocratic. Democracy is a form of government, regardless of how many ignorant people attempt to apply it to social or economic settings. Unions, being nothing more than collective bargaining organizations or corporations, have elements both empowering to and inimical to personal freedom.

As to what china should do, I'm not a fan of ruthless suppression or government involvement. I think it'd be best to let employees and employers work it out, with or without unions.

ps - the shift button is not difficult to use; please try it. This is from a phone and puts too many posts to shame.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[freethefly 6]

Quote

>That makes no sense.

>As a company grows, jobs are created. If a company falters, jobs are eliminated. It is in the best interest of a company to grow and create jobs. It is in the best interest of the employee to help a company grow in order to retain their jobs. It is in the best interest of the company to offer fair compensation to those who create the concepts of product to the who build the product that generates the companies profit. Every person needs to be compensated fairly for their effort.

I think you read it wrong. I am saying the company exist for the owners profit. It does not exist so he can create jobs for people. that is a benefit for others but not the companies purpose or why it was created. its only purpose is profit, not jobs.

does that make sense? I'm not asking if you agree. i'm asking if its worded that in a way you understand. I might not have in the line you quoted.

I fully understand that a person starts a business to create a profit for him/herself. Why start one if not? One of the products of starting a company is the creation of jobs. Without those, from the top to the bottom, the company cannot exist. In order for a company to remain in existence, it needs employees who care enough to do the very best. In order to retain the best, you have to offer fair compensation for the job performed. An owner cannot take it all, give the finger to the employees, and treat them like crap. If he/she does, the product suffers in quality. The best will not remain, only those willing to work for sub-standard compensation. That will destroy a company. Disgruntle employees do not care. Those treated fairly do care.
I will say, unions do not belong in the small company that is owned solely by the creator. I will say that unions are needed in the large companies that are a corporation or part of a conglomerate.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Kennedy 0]

You just made his point. The business exists to make money for it's owners. Employees are necessary. Individual employees are replaceable. Smart owners/managers work to keep the best employees, but nothing says they can't run the business as they please.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

or join a union
(and get paid what you're worth)

So you think union wages will be going down in the future?

Well played, well played.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Unions suck.

You agreed to go to work for a set wage now you want to back out of YOUR agreement?

The economy goes to shit and the money you agreed to work for doesn't cover what it used to so now you want more money to maintain your standards.

Well, that's fine. Take another job somewhere with a company that pays what you need. There's plenty of other people willing to work and maintain the standard that no longer suits you.

It's not the company's responsibility to maintain your standard of living. It's their responsibility to make profit for owners/shareholders.

I like the thing posted about the company closing the plants. Simple solution. Union screwed themselves AND the workers. Well, I should think that the workers screwed themselves because I'm sure the striking was put to a vote, eh?


As far as the OP...
IMO, yeah, probably a union guy but we don't know for sure. All you guys with blinders on...good luck with that. I hope it turns out that you were right so that you can jump up and down, wave your arms and yell, "SEE! I TOLD YOU SO." It's going to be embarrassing if it turns out to be a local gangsta butthead.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

my point still stands. the company exist for the owners not to create jobs. Employee pay has nothing to do with owner profit.

Sorry, but that's short-sighted and wrong. If a company's business plan includes the use of employed labor, then the dynamics of the relationship between the economic power of the employer and the collective power of the workers must be planned-for prudently, in advance. Failure to do so is a lack of due diligence which nature would not tolerate if certain state governments did not artificially tip the natural balance by enacting anti-union legislation.