Guns in Bars

[rehmwa 2]

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>So drunk drivers are about two and a half times more deadly than people with guns.

Hmm. There are only about 40 deaths every year from skydiving. Does that mean that driving is over 500 times more deadly than skydiving?

does this include skydivers that also drive to the DZ while taking shots of tequila and cleaning their handguns during that road trip?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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>So drunk drivers are about two and a half times more deadly than people with guns.

Hmm. There are only about 40 deaths every year from skydiving. Does that mean that driving is over 500 times more deadly than skydiving?

well, it might if there were more than 20,000 active skydivers in the country.

John's comparison grossly understates the problem, comparing drunk drivers with all gun possessors, not just drunk and armed ones. Of the rounded 10000 homicides with guns, how many were at a bar? Of the rounded 20k+ deaths stemming from drunk driving, how many had just left a bar?

[billvon 2,476]

>well, it might if there were more than 20,000 active skydivers in the country.

Exactly.

Now, if you had stats that compared the death rate of, say, 100,000 people who operate their cars for an hour a day vs. 100,000 people who shoot for an hour a day (or even 100,000 skydivers who are in the air an hour a day) you'd have a pretty accurate comparison.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>well, it might if there were more than 20,000 active skydivers in the country.

Exactly.

Now, if you had stats that compared the death rate of, say, 100,000 people who operate their cars for an hour a day vs. 100,000 people who shoot for an hour a day (or even 100,000 skydivers who are in the air an hour a day) you'd have a pretty accurate comparison.

no real need to operate at that level of precision. We know the number of drivers (190 registered, figure slightly fewer active), the number of gun owners (80M), the number of DUI related deaths, and the total number of gun deaths. We don't know the number of drunk deaths, but can surmise it's a small piece of the pie.

I can't see any form of statistical torture that makes the gun a bigger concern than the car. It's a potential threat versus a proven threat.

PS: we know the skydiver loses in any of these comparisons, with the 1/1000 annual death rate.

[billvon 2,476]

>We know the number of drivers (190 registered, figure slightly fewer active),
>the number of gun owners (80M), the number of DUI related deaths, and the
>total number of gun deaths.

I assume you mean 190M.

However, to accurately compare the three you'd have to do it one of two ways:

1) If ownership is the issue, you'd have to compare gun owners to car owners (not drivers) and parachute owners. Thus aerobatic pilots and non-driving seniors who own cars would have to be taken into account.

2) If operation is the issue, you'd have to compare people who drive, people who shoot and people who skydive on a daily basis, either based on time involved in the activity (if you want to know risk per unit time) or based on which days they do that actively (if you want to know risk per day.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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2) If operation is the issue, you'd have to compare people who drive, people who shoot and people who skydive on a daily basis, either based on time involved in the activity (if you want to know risk per unit time) or based on which days they do that actively (if you want to know risk per day.)

operation IS NOT the issue. People are asserting risk from the mere presence of guns at the bars, and also specifically in the case where someone with a CCW is drinking at the bar. The implication of course is that with impairment, said permit holders will shoot off their guns inappropriately, and pose a bigger threat to society than the cars used to get home from the same bars.

You're trying to hide behind unnecessary detail here to avoid facing the reality of it all.

[chuckakers 372]

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"Back when everyone had guns on their hips; folks were a whole lot more polite to each other." ~Louis L'Amour

Louis L'Amour was a fiction writer.

So that precludes him from making non-fiction statements?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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Negative. Drunk drivers killed about 26,000 people last year in America. There were about 9,600 homicides with guns. So drunk drivers are about two and a half times more deadly than people with guns. And the drunk drivers don't even intend to kill anyone, while the murderers are actually trying to do so.

I said car keys, not car.

Both driving the car and shooting the gun are equally stupid when drunk. However, I still rank the drunk with a gun as more dangerous than the drunk with the car keys. I stand a better change wrestling the car keys away than the gun, before they decide to do something stupid (like use the tool).

[DaVinci 0]

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Thought we were discussing mixing alcohol and firearms and the very contrived examples both pro and con.

No, we are discussing why a person who is sober should be prevented from being armed. NO ONE said a guy that was drunk should have a gun.

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Most can agree that a drunk with a gun is slightly more dangerous than a drunk with car keys.

Nonsense. Provide some data to back up your conclusion.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Thought we were discussing mixing alcohol and firearms and the very contrived examples both pro and con.

No, we are discussing why a person who is sober should be prevented from being armed. NO ONE said a guy that was drunk should have a gun..

Uh, no, we are discussing whether guns should be allowed in bars. Thus the thread title, "Guns in Bars".

This is what, the fourth? fifth? time you've weasel-worded the framing of the issue in this thread.

[DaVinci 0]

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Uh, no, we are discussing whether guns should be allowed in bars. Thus the thread title, "Guns in Bars".

ALLOWED to be armed in bars.... Not should people be allowed to be armed and DRUNK in bars.

Can you find a single person saying a guy that is drunk should be allowed to operate or even carry a firearm?

If not, then it is YOU that is trying to change the meaning of the OP and this discussion.

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This is what, the fourth? fifth? time you've weasel-worded the framing of the issue in this thread.

Same to you.

[billvon 2,476]

>operation IS NOT the issue.

OK. So count car owners and parachute owners to go along with gun owners, since you are concerned about inadvertent usage.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Uh, no, we are discussing whether guns should be allowed in bars. Thus the thread title, "Guns in Bars".

ALLOWED to be armed in bars.... Not should people be allowed to be armed and DRUNK in bars.

Again, no. Everyone agrees that people shouldn't be armed while drunk, especially in bars.

The original issue is whether a person should be allowed to carry his gun when he first enters a bar, even if he's sober. Is there something special about a bar venue in that context? There are pros and cons to the issue, but that's the issue, son - not your re-casting of it into something different.

(P.S.- I know you are but what am I?)

[DaVinci 0]

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The original issue is whether a person should be allowed to carry his gun when he first enters a bar, even if he's sober.

Well you act like you know that.... But you don't talk like you know that.

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Is there something special about a bar venue in that context?

Yes, you and others seem to think that a guy that is in a bar MUST drink.

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(P.S.- I know you are but what am I?)

You started that.... You will get what you send out.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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No, we are discussing why a person who is sober should be prevented from being armed.

You just can't decide on what you actually want to talk about.

[kelpdiver 2]

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However, I still rank the drunk with a gun as more dangerous than the drunk with the car keys.

Yes, in your mind that is the case.

Reality is a different story.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Yes, you and others seem to think that a guy that is in a bar MUST drink.

You're mischaracterizing what I've said. Again. This is now the second time I will specifically direct you to my post #41 in this thread.

[freethefly 6]

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Yes, you and others seem to think that a guy that is in a bar MUST drink.

It is reasonable to think that a person with a gun in a bar might have a few beers. If the gun is concealed and no one knows he has it, what is to stop him from having a cold one? A few, in this thread, believe it is alright to have a drink or two while armed.
For what reason does anyone need to be armed when in a bar? Do they think they are there to protect everyone from the "bad guys?" Are they only there to show off their gun? What, exactly, is the reason that some feel that they need to be armed while inside a tavern?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

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For what reason does anyone need to be armed when in a bar? Do they think they are there to protect everyone from the "bad guys?" Are they only there to show off their gun? What, exactly, is the reason that some feel that they need to be armed while inside a tavern?

if you're an active CCW permit holder and normally carry, what reason can you think of that they would disarm just because they're at a bar?

What a stupid question.

[freethefly 6]

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For what reason does anyone need to be armed when in a bar? Do they think they are there to protect everyone from the "bad guys?" Are they only there to show off their gun? What, exactly, is the reason that some feel that they need to be armed while inside a tavern?

if you're an active CCW permit holder and normally carry, what reason can you think of that they would disarm just because they're at a bar?

What a stupid question.

Instead of implying that someone is stupid, explain why a person might need to be armed inside a bar. Is there a higher probability that they may have to shoot someone while there? I highly doubt it. CCW permit holders are just as likely to break the law as any other person. Studies in Texas shows this to be true.

http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp
Dangers of Permissive Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) Laws

Shall-issue laws permitting the carrying of concealed firearms (CCW) (where law enforcement has no discretion in issuing a permit or license) do not appear to reduce crime, and no credible statistical evidence exists that such permissive CCW laws reduce crime. There is evidence permissive CCW laws generally will increase crime.59

A National Academy of Sciences report reviewing existing data on the effectiveness of firearm laws, including research purporting to demonstrate that concealed carry (also called “right-to-carry”) laws reduce crime, found that the “evidence to date does not adequately indicate either the sign or the magnitude of a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates.”60

An analysis of Texas’ CCW law, (a law adopted in 1995 that overturned the state’s 125-year ban on concealed weapons), found that between January 1, 1996 and August 31, 2001, Texas license holders were arrested for 5,314 crimes, including murder, rape, kidnapping and theft.61

From 1996 to 2000, Texas CCW holders were arrested for weapons-related crimes at a rate 81% higher than that of the state’s general population age 21 and older.62

Since the Texas law took effect, more than 400 criminals – including rapists and armed robbers – had been issued CCW permits, and thousands of the 215,000 permit holders have been arrested for criminal behavior or found to be mentally unstable.63 The “largest category of problem licensees involve[d] those who committed crimes after getting their state” permits.64

Florida’s CCW system had, just in the first half of 2006, licensed more than 1,400 individuals who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, 216 individuals with outstanding warrants, 128 people with active domestic violence injunctions against them, and six registered sex offenders.65

So, other than believing that they are there to protect everyone from criminals, what other reason would a person have to need a gun inside any establishment?

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[JohnRich 4]

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http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp
Dangers of Permissive Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) Laws

You really need to learn not to accept "studies" from anti-gun organizations at face value.
You have more homework to do...
Here's a start for you: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2009.pdf

That report gives straight facts from the government agency whose job it is to monitor the statistics, not from a advocacy organization with a gun-o-phobe agenda.

Oh, and putting things in bold doesn't make them any more true. The usual protocol for posting quotes from another source is to put them in italics.

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So, other than believing that they are there to protect everyone from criminals, what other reason would a person have to need a gun inside any establishment?

To protect themselves. The purpose of a concealed handgun license is not to turn those citizens into "police officers" that protect others, but rather to simply be able to protect themselves.

And perhaps you need to back-up and review message #1 in this thread, which should alleviate this fear you seem to have of licensed handgun owners in bars.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Instead of implying that someone is stupid, explain why a person might need to be armed inside a bar. Is there a higher probability that they may have to shoot someone while there? I highly doubt it.

I don't most holders expect to need to (or want to) shoot someone. A bar is no different than the restaurant or the grocery store. Again - tell us why you can't understand why a person who carries a concealed gun all day wouldn't keep it on their person when they go to a bar?

As for the rest of the nonsense, it's interesting to note how they retreated from the claims that CCWs would increase crime. Now the best they can do is assert it didn't lower crime. That's a win for gun owners.

[freethefly 6]

Not necessarily an anti gun site as they favor personalized guns to stem the misuse of guns.

I've been in bars throughout the U.S., Canada, and Mexico (working the rails), as well as bars overseas (Navy). I've seen bar fights and even been in one or two. Only twice have I ever seen anything escalate to the point of extreme violence. Once in Fort Worth at a place called The Lariat, someone got their throat slashed. Once in East St. Louis at a biker bar called Froggy's when a Saddle Tramp fired a shotgun through a window. Weapons of any type are banned at Froggy's. The owner, Mexican Joe, scans you with a wand before you can enter. He doesn't give a shit if your gun is legal or not. He simply does not allow any guns, knives, or any type of weapon in his bar or even his parking lot. If he hears you have a gun out on your bike, you're eightysixed. That is a great policy to have.

If the places you go are so dangerous that you need a gun, maybe you should choose where you go more carefully.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not necessarily an anti gun site as they favor personalized guns to stem the misuse of guns.

you mean non existence technology that would jack up prices (no guns for the non rich) and make them unreliable?

Out of curiousity - given a perfectly reliable system that restricts use to authorized users - what percentage of murders do you think would be prevented? 10%?

[JohnRich 4]

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If the places you go are so dangerous that you need a gun, maybe you should choose where you go more carefully.

Danger occurs in all kinds of places, and one can never predict where or when. Even in seemingly "safe" places. Criminals are everywhere, and you can't just choose to exclude them, not even in your own home. If you think that there are safe places which are immune to criminal violence, then that just demonstrates how naive and uninformed you are on this issue.

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Not necessarily an anti gun site as they favor personalized guns to stem the misuse of guns.

Anti-gun gun-o-phobes: http://www.lcav.org/about/our_work.asp

- They worked against the Supreme Court decision affirming 2nd Amendment rights nationwide.
- Supported a law requiring firearms to be stored locked or disassembled in the home and effectively
banning handgun possession in the interest of public safety.
- Sues the gun industry for the actions of criminals, in an attempt to drive them out of business.
- Supports limits on the number of guns that can be purchased in a month.
- Supports banning gun shows in county convention centers.
- Supports licensing of ammo sellers and recording of all ammo sales.
- Supports "personalized" handguns, a technology which doesn't yet work reliably.
- Supports banning so-called "assault weapons".
- Supports banning guns on college campuses.

If you think these folks aren't against gun ownership, you're deluding yourself. And if you don't take off your blinders, it casts your own posts into serious doubt.