dreamdancer 0 #176 May 24, 2011 QuoteAnother argument is that estate tax is essential for true Capitalism. The argument is that Capitalism is a survival of the fittest contest breeding a strong society, and that without estate tax the wealth of the nation becomes concentrated into fewer and fewer families, which in turn prevents the brightest and most fit from being able to compete. Estate tax means that there is more need for people to continue earning, rather than resting upon the wealth they inherit without contributing to the competition that is Capitalism. Furthermore, supporters argue that many large fortunes do not represent taxed income or savings, that wealth is not being taxed but merely the transfer of that wealth, and that many large fortunes represent unrealized capital gains which (because of a step up in basis at the time of death) will never be taxed as capital gains under the federal income tax. Another argument in favor of the estate tax relates to comparative incentives. Proponents argue that the estate tax is a better source of revenue than the income tax, which is said to directly disincentivize work. While all taxes have this effect to a degree, some argue that the estate tax is less of a disincentive since it does not tax money that the earner spends, but merely that which he or she wishes to give away for non-charitable purposes. Moreover, some argue that allowing the rich to bequeath unlimited wealth on future generations will disincentivize hard work in those future generations. Winston Churchill argued that estate taxes are “a certain corrective against the development of a race of idle rich”. Research suggests that the more wealth that older people inherit, the more likely they are to leave the labor market. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_in_the_United_Statesstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #177 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteNo one in the business world gets tenure or anything remotely like it. you don't know much about family businesses do you? they can fail, unlike a public university, or any established private one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #178 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteI'm unaware of anything Paris has done for the family business. you make my point... but only when you quote out of context. It's the only move you got, aside from parroting questionable internet columns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #179 May 24, 2011 Quote Anyone with an airplane is rich - you heard it here, you rich bastard. I only got one AFTER I found you had one...and YOU'VE had yours a long time. That makes you a RICH....OLD.....bastard. Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #180 May 24, 2011 Quote typical attitude of the rich. me, me, me... Typical attitude of the good troll. You can't really answer anything but you can keep it stired up. No kidding you've done good. I work through college, paid back my student loans, worked in a family business. Purchased that from my father when he passed. I employee 32 people. I pay lot's of taxes. Most of what you come up with wouldn't effect me. I'm not "super rich" but I don't believe that I should be paying more OR the fellow above me. Your after the Gates of the world not me....but your idea's are paid for by Gates...they are paid for by guys like Bill Vonn and his wife, me...and the middle class and THAT is killing the middle class.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #181 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote typical attitude of the rich. me, me, me... Typical attitude of the good troll. if you're saying the rich are trolling us - i agree stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #182 May 24, 2011 QuoteI'm not "super rich" but I don't believe that I should be paying more OR the fellow above me. just the people below you then...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #183 May 24, 2011 QuoteThirty years ago, the richest 1 percent owned less than a fifth of America’s wealth. Now, according to a recent report by the Fed Reserve Board, they own more than a third. Not since the days of the robber barons of the 19th century have we seen this much wealth concentrated in so few hands. Super-rich couples can now pass on $4 million to their heirs tax-free. Anything over $4 million is taxed at a 45 percent rate. Why, exactly, is it so important to repeal the estate tax altogether? Repeal will cost the Treasury nearly a trillion dollars in its first 10 years—more than the entire shortfall in Social Security. That means more federal debt or higher taxes on the middle class. Those who argue for repeal say the estate tax discourages entrepreneurs. What? Passing on $4 million tax free to your kids is not enough incentive? Talk about discouraging entrepreneurship. Repeal the estate tax and within a few decades control over America’s productive assets will be in the hands of non-productive Americans who never lifted a finger in their lives except to speed-dial their financial advisors. People who inherit great wealth just because they’re lucky enough to have super-rich parents don’t have any particular incentive to be entrepreneurial. They don’t have any particular incentive to do anything. Giving them control over the American economy is like giving control over a Boeing 777 to teenagers with joysticks. According to a new report from United for a Fair Economy, 18 families worth a total of $185 billion have financed and coordinated the repeal campaign. They’ve underwritten the massive PR drive that fooled most Americans into thinking the estate tax was a "death" tax that would fall on them. They posed as small businesses and family farmers, saying their livelihoods would be threatened unless the tax were repealed. In fact it’s hard to find a small business or family farm with an estate valued at more than $4 million. Most of these 18 families have been wealthy for decades. Only five of them include any of the people who first earned the family fortune. If they succeed in their repeal campaign, they’ll save a total of $71 billion on their tax bills. That’s a healthy return on their investment in politics. Maybe you call this entrepreneurship. I call it further proof of the danger of concentrated wealth. http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/06/06/estate_tax_pyramid_scheme.phpstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #184 May 24, 2011 Maybe you'd be rich if you spent as much time working towards it as you do trolling this site and posting googled articles that nobody reads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #185 May 24, 2011 i'm as rich as i want to be - i'm not greedy stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #186 May 24, 2011 Quote i'm as rich as i want to be - i'm not greedy Yeah, right. If you saw the oportunity to work hard for a few years to make a couple of $million, you'd jump on it just like anyone else. Then you'd be on here complaining that the government was taking a huge chunk of it. Believe me, it means a lot more to someone who has worked 18 hour days and earned the money. Most who have done nothing but work for someone else and put their paycheck in the bank at the end of the week will never undestand. Like explaining skydiving to a whuffo. The whuffos love to run their mouths about something they know nothing about. BTW aren't you that guy "the something known as Ivan" who was banned from this site several years ago? The "comedianknownas Ivan" as I recall or something like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #187 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote i'm as rich as i want to be - i'm not greedy Yeah, right. If you saw the oportunity to work hard for a few years to make a couple of $million, you'd jump on it just like anyone else. Then you'd be on here complaining that the government was taking a huge chunk of it. you should be a fiction writer - you have a vivid imagination...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #188 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote Anyone with an airplane is rich - you heard it here, you rich bastard. I only got one AFTER I found you had one...and YOU'VE had yours a long time. That makes you a RICH....OLD.....bastard. Yep, that's me. I don't whine about paying my taxes, though. Also I paid for it with the proceeds of a family business ( to kelpdiver) My kids worked for me and I paid them a fair wage at the time. Any inheritance they get is therefore a gift, NOT the result of their work, which has already been paid for. Kelpdiver's argument is ridiculous.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #189 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Anyone with an airplane is rich - you heard it here, you rich bastard. I only got one AFTER I found you had one...and YOU'VE had yours a long time. That makes you a RICH....OLD.....bastard. Yep, that's me. I don't whine about paying my taxes, though. Also I paid for it with the proceeds of a family business ( to kelpdiver) My kids worked for me and I paid them a fair wage at the time. Any inheritance they get is therefore a gift, NOT the result of their work, which has already been paid for. Kelpdiver's argument is ridiculous. Kallend's canard is ridiculous, but typical for a bitter old McCain type. But you support it all the same, because you're disproving DD's claim that the heirs did nothing. You just don't think it's enough. Different debate topic entirely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #190 May 24, 2011 Quote you're disproving DD's claim that the heirs did nothing. no, i don't think so (try again)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #191 May 24, 2011 QuoteYour after the Gates of the world not me... No, he's after the Paris Hiltons. The term "Rich" will be redefined to suit whatever point is trying to be made, but the image of Parris Hilton never goes away. Getting yourself nice and riled up by picking a person you despise to represent a group you're about to talk about is a great way to stay objective on the matter. I already responded a few times on the last lap through this topic so I'll try not to just repeat myself. Whatever revenue system the government chooses, it should be sustainable in the long term. You decide what the government should provide, and you take a cut of the economic activity that those provisions help generate in order to pay for it. If that includes things like socialized health care and robust unemployment safety nets, then so it does. If that means a combination of highly progressive income taxes, capital gains taxes, VAT and/or sales tax then so it does. Estate taxes are something different. Estate taxes are just saying, "I want pressure to exist on all wealth that is generated that pushes it into the government's hands." I think that explains why you'd have to imagine all "rich people" to be Paris Hiltons, because that's the only way you can make this sound like a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #192 May 24, 2011 Quote>According to Citizens for Tax Justice the top 1% of Americans own 40% of > the nation's wealth and pay 21.5% of federal and state taxes. And according to the IRS they paid 38.02% of all income taxes in 2008. The top 5% paid 58.7% of all income taxes. I have a feeling the IRS has better access to federal taxation data. Those figures can be deceiving. With the current wealth disparity the top 1% can pay a lower tax rate and still contribute a significant portion to the pot of total taxes collected for a given year. For example, we could give massive tax cuts as economic "stimulus", cut the Treasury's tax receipts in half and the wealthiest would be paying nearly all of the taxes in "the pot" yet still manage to do it while being taxed at the capital gains rate (or less). The fact that the wealthiest can pay such a significant portion of the total receipts is a more a reflection of the immenseness of the wealth disparity. That's what happens when the 1980 CEO makes 40 times the salary of the average worker and the 2010 CEO makes 350 times the salary of the average worker. (not sure if I'm explaining that concept effectively. Need more coffee.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #193 May 24, 2011 Quote Getting yourself nice and riled up by picking a person you despise to represent a group you're about to talk about is a great way to stay objective on the matter. AND, a great way for two political parties to stay in power ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #194 May 24, 2011 QuoteThat's what happens when the 1980 CEO makes 40 times the salary of the average worker and the 2010 CEO makes 350 times the salary of the average worker. (not sure if I'm explaining that concept effectively. Need more coffee.) That is EXACTLY the problem. And it IS a problem. Disparities like that are what lead to social upheaval.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #195 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Anyone with an airplane is rich - you heard it here, you rich bastard. I only got one AFTER I found you had one...and YOU'VE had yours a long time. That makes you a RICH....OLD.....bastard. Yep, that's me. I don't whine about paying my taxes, though. Also I paid for it with the proceeds of a family business ( to kelpdiver) My kids worked for me and I paid them a fair wage at the time. Any inheritance they get is therefore a gift, NOT the result of their work, which has already been paid for. Kelpdiver's argument is ridiculous. Kallend's canard is ridiculous, but typical for a bitter old McCain type. But you support it all the same, because you're disproving DD's claim that the heirs did nothing. You just don't think it's enough. Different debate topic entirely. YOU made the claim that heirs to fortunes somehow earned the money. That is simply incorrect, and nothing you have written subsequently supports your position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #196 May 24, 2011 QuoteQuoteThat's what happens when the 1980 CEO makes 40 times the salary of the average worker and the 2010 CEO makes 350 times the salary of the average worker. (not sure if I'm explaining that concept effectively. Need more coffee.) That is EXACTLY the problem. And it IS a problem. Disparities like that are what lead to social upheaval. Two words......"guillotine futures". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #197 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote i'm as rich as i want to be - i'm not greedy Yeah, right. If you saw the oportunity to work hard for a few years to make a couple of $million, you'd jump on it just like anyone else. Then you'd be on here complaining that the government was taking a huge chunk of it. Believe me, it means a lot more to someone who has worked 18 hour days and earned the money. Most who have done nothing but work for someone else and put their paycheck in the bank at the end of the week will never undestand. Neither will those that simply inherit the family fortune ever understand. One of the reasons many of our Senators and recent presidents failed to understand.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #198 May 24, 2011 I'm not "super rich" but I don't believe that I should be paying more OR the fellow above me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- just the people below you then... *** Lol Damn man, you have no idea how I got what little I may or may not have but you seem to just believe that if someone has a pot to piss in that they just want to screw the other guy. Your veiws are sad and shallow, and it appears you can't believe that anyone that doesn't feel the need to give more to the gov can be a decent person.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #199 May 24, 2011 Quote Yep, that's me. I don't whine about paying my taxes, though. ROTFLOL, right. John your way to smart to tell anyone at dz.com your real thoughts on much of anything. Quote My kids worked for me and I paid them a fair wage at the time. All three of my kids have worked here. (One is here now) All three started at min. wage, the most they got paid above min. wage was .50 AND being the bastard I am I took - yes took - HALF of there earnings and put it in saving which they recieved at 18. Quote Any inheritance they get is therefore a gift, NOT the result of their work, which has already been paid for. So forgive me my OLD friend if you have answered this...it the inheritance tax started at dollar one would you be ok with it being 40%? So I stand corrected you actually just a OLD BASTARD Love frKevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #200 May 24, 2011 Quote Quote Quote i'm as rich as i want to be - i'm not greedy Yeah, right. If you saw the oportunity to work hard for a few years to make a couple of $million, you'd jump on it just like anyone else. Then you'd be on here complaining that the government was taking a huge chunk of it. Believe me, it means a lot more to someone who has worked 18 hour days and earned the money. Most who have done nothing but work for someone else and put their paycheck in the bank at the end of the week will never undestand. Neither will those that simply inherit the family fortune ever understand. One of the reasons many of our Senators and recent presidents failed to understand. I don't disagree at all. That still doesn't give the government the right to balance the budget on the backs of those who pay the bulk of the taxes. I'm talking about those of us who run our own businesses and know what it's like to bust our asses and to take the financial risks only to have some rube who has never done anything but collect a weekly paycheck from his boss, tell us how we need to pay more. Until you've had skin in the game, you don't understand, no matter how many books you've read or how many people you have talked to who operate their own business. That's like some wuffo telling you how to skydive more safely or how to land a plane safely. Until you've been there and understand what it takes to succeed in running a business, then STFU. Jack my taxes up and I won't hire a new employee. We will just make do with the ones we have and force them to be more productive. If they can't be, then we will let them go and hire someone else. What we won't do is expand the workforce. Edited to add: Not directed at you specifically, John. Just a general observation and comment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
